Rear Sway Bar with Pocket Springs

[Bihili]

With the traditional rear sway bar installed under the frame I don't think they will work with pocket leaf springs in the frame. I have a twelve bolt and a pan-hard bar so maybe I can still squeeze a sway bar in there.
There does not seem to be anyone making a sway bar for pocket springs yet.
So would a rear sway bar from a Nova work or some other car with a narrow frame?
http://www.classicperform.com/Store/1962_67_Chevy_Nova/CP916U.htm

Rick_L does your Nova have a rear sway bar and do you think it would fit under your TriFive?

[Gary Blake]

I've got a helwig mounted in mine, with 12 bolt. Brackets for the end mount are welded to the inside of frame. actually I believe mine was for 55-59 pickup. Its heavier bar than the front. Now if I can sneak my exhaust through It'll be all good!

[Rick_L]

I spoke at some length with the engineer at Hellwig about a bar for a 55-57 with the springs moved into the pockets. I wasn't that keen on using one anyway, I had him on the phone about my front bar - he tried to convince me I needed a rear bar.

One reason I didn't think I needed a bar was due to the use of traction bars. I think my suspension will be stiff enough in the back with 5 leaf springs and Cal-Trac clones.

The standard bar Hellwig sells for a 55-57 rear won't fit, it's too wide.

I think you'd have to do as Gary suggests, weld the mounts to the inside of the frame, and use a bar that's the correct width for that.

The other problem is missing the shocks and tailpipes, and traction bars.

Gary, where does your bar mount on the axle? Top/bottom/front/rear?

[Bihili]

I
The standard bar Hellwig sells for a 55-57 rear won't fit, it's too wide.


Their 5822 model has three holes for adjustments which sounds good but as you said, is too wide.

Did the engineer suggest a model for a different car that might fit?
I know it will require fabricating some mounts on the inside of the frame.

Gary any Pics?

[Gary Blake]

You know this will sound dumb, I'll have to look, I'll try and get some pics on.:mad:

[Gary Blake]

Bill I'm at work now, I'll try to get some pics tonight and get them on.:)

[Rick_L]

bihili, I just emailed you a photo of the installation of a Hellwig 5821 bar.

When Dave their engineer emailed me this photo, I thought that the bar was wider that the inside of the frame and then the forward portion made a bend back toward the inside. Looking at it tonight, that may have been an optical illusion, and the forward portion may be straight. Which makes sense because making it the way I had previously thought it was just adds to the manufacturing cost by adding another bend on each side. If my new idea on how it's done is right, I think it might work on a pocket kit IF it will miss the shock mount plate below the axle.

See what you think, and call Dave at Hellwig if needed. Their phone number is listed in their ad on Chevytalk or I'm sure you can google it.

For the rest of you, sorry about not posting the photo, maybe bihili can post it once he gets it.

[Topjafo]

Bill- Proggressive suspension out of Ohio makes a rear sway bar for the tri fives. it mounts low and to the rear (has adjustment fore and aft) mounts to the inner frame. I believe it is 1" dia. I try to post some pics of it, but leaving for biz on the 31st for about a week.

Rick- as far as sway bars and leafs, I have had this discussion with others and seems to be a 50/50 split, but i would like to hear why you dont think you need a sway bar? leafs work in the Y axis(vert), provide most of x axis (side to side)(some bushing loss) but has very little control in the z axis (roll), i.e. if I push down on one side that side will dive and the opposite will lift, if enough force is applied I will eventually lift the other tire off the ground (of course we dont have that much travel in the susp). and traction bars wont help this, it will help on the dive side as far as a little downwards resistance but wont help with the other side. Let me know your thoughts

Mig

[Bihili]

Thanks Rick for the Pic. I think your right, the front arm of the bar may be parallel to the frame. If it will clear my pan hard bar this might work .
I will give them a call. I wish Hellwig had this picture at their website, they might sell a few if they did. According to Hellwig spec sheet the model number for the rear sway bar with pocket springs is #8296
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL470/4002687/9586506/349222794.jpg

[Rick_L]

Bihili, after looking at my rear suspension, I think the bar may still be too wide to clear the shock mount. But yours may be different.

Getting some dimensions from Hellwig will probably tell you what you need to know.

Topjafo, increasing the spring rate on the rear springs increases the roll stiffness, so if there's a certain roll stiffness needed or wanted, you don't need as much sway bar stiffness or any sway bar at all if the spring rate is high. I can't tell you how stiff the rear needs to be - part of it is balancing the rear stiffness to the front stiffness. I do know that some say you don't need or want a rear sway bar - but I don't know if they are "road racing" experts, or are just going from the "seat of the pants" feel. I am sure that adding certain types of traction bars is going to add roll stiffness too.

In the end, the roll stiffness you need is what makes the car comfortable to drive - the way you drive it. And that's pretty subjective.

For example, you'll see some guys post that a 7/8" front sway bar is wonderful. Others say that a 1-1/8" front sway bar is what you need. Seems to me that no rear sway bar probably works with the small front ones. Maybe when you get to a big front bar you need at least a small rear bar, or at least some stiff springs.

I don't think there's a clear answer here.

[Topjafo]

Rick- yes it is very subjective point and i left out that you can increase the spring rate to achieve roll stiffness in the prev post. I didnt mean to sound pointed at you but Ive read most of you post/replies and find you to be very knowledgable and wanted to see if you had any reasons that I havent encounted yet and I like banter,thats how you learn. The way I still see it is its hard to plant the tire when the wieght is lifting, mind that we are just talking only when cornering, and the natural reaction is the spring is to lift.

Now to make it more confusing-so if we use 250# springs therotically they will cancel each other out (squat/lift) and we will still get roll. So if we go to a 500# spring again they will still cancel each other out and we get roll but it will start later in the wieght shift. I should draw this out cause this may confuse some one

mig

[Gary Blake]

Bill I have pictures in "my garage" and thats the only place we can put them I guess? Rick L. if you can see them, do you think this will work OK?
Gary

[Topjafo]

Here the picture of mine
Mig

[Rick_L]

Topjafo, your point about the sway bar trying to plant the inside tire in a turn is well taken. But remember too that the spring works both directions. A stiffer spring resists extension as well as compression. In other words it doesn't extend as far when a given amount of force is removed. But indeed that's different from the sway bar ADDING downward force to the inside tire.

I think it's all about balance and how you want your car to drive. If the front end is relatively stiff compared to the rear, it will understeer. The Nascar guys call that "tight" or a "push", which means the front end loses traction first and the front end will hit the wall if the car goes into a corner too hard. If the rear is stiffer than the front, that's oversteer, or what the racers call "loose", and the rear loses traction first - the car will hit the wall with the rear fender. So adding a rear bar or increasing the rear bar (or stiffer rear springs) will reduce understeer or eventually cause oversteer. Our cars generally understeer and most drivers don't feel comfortable with oversteer.

Gary, I can see the photos in your garage. Looks like your bar must have been built to mount in front of the axle tube, but you moved it to the top to make it clear the shock. Does it clear the floor OK.

Topjafo, hard to see details on your photo, it's a bit dark on my monitor (probably ok on yours).

[Gary Blake]

Thanks Rick, I measured from the floor to the floor, shop floor up to car floor, and it was close, I forgot with no weight on my frame it was not right. I'm going to rig a redneck anchor on the frame to get approx height.:)

[Bihili]

Gary thanks for the pics. Yours is very close to what I am looking for,
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL470/4002687/9586506/349294562.jpg

The only problem is my shocks have been moved to a more vertical postion on my shock bar. I could move them to a original angle to clear your sway bar. Gary do you know any more details about your sway bar?
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL470/4002687/9586506/349293392.jpg

The Hellwig bar below may work if I can move the axle mounts inward to avoid pan hard bar.
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL470/4002687/9586506/349222794.jpg

[linus7226]

Thanks Rick for the Pic. I think your right, the front arm of the bar may be parallel to the frame. If it will clear my pan hard bar this might work .
I will give them a call. I wish Hellwig had this picture at their website, they might sell a few if they did. According to Hellwig spec sheet the model number for the rear sway bar with pocket springs is #8296
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL470/4002687/9586506/349222794.jpg

Bihili, This pic shows springs in the original position on the outside of the frame. Will the bar shown work with the pocket springs as well? What does it tie to, the frame or the floor pan?