Piping airline in the shop

[Busted_Knuckles]

I am tired of tripping over air hoses in the shop and have had this on my to do list for about 2 years now so I figure it's time I get around to finally doing it.

My question is has anyone ever plumed air lines using copper pipe? I have used the conventional black iron pipe in the past, but figure copper would be a bit easier to work with. I haven't compared prices yet but figure neither way is going to be a cheap under taking. My one hesitation about using black-pipe is I do not have access to a threading machine so I will have to piece it out in sections purchased from the home center. I am confident that copper will withstand the pressure and I can handle soldering just fine but was curious if anyone was aware of any reasons as to why copper is not a good choice.

Thanks

[57driver]

[QUOTE=Busted_Knuckles;494745]I am tired of tripping over air hoses in the shop and have had this on my to do list for about 2 years now so I figure it's time I get around to finally doing it.

It is common to use copper in industrial settings all the time for air lines where condensation and rust are a concern. Black pipe is less expensive than copper usually, and maintenance shops and pipe fitters have no problem threading it, so it is the most used material for standard air line. If you don't mind spending the money, don't feel bad about going with copper, especially if you have lots of corners to turn. It is sometimes quicker to cut and fab copper, then sweat it all in place, as opposed to threading each little piece of black steel pipe.

[Gregs210]

I think if you price copper, you'll use iron pipe.

[Tuned55]

We ran 1/2'' copper with at least 1 line in every wall. Even a couple outside

[mickym521]

I have seen a lot of shops here using schedule 40 plastic pipe with no problems. It is cheap and easy to fabricate.

[old school 55]

I piped mine in 3/4 pex. from the basement to the garage, moveing the compressor down there gave me a little more room too, and the pex has held up fine, been a little over a year now, I fabbed up a couple of junction blocks out of hard pipe and fasetend them to the walls and tee'd the main line to run the 50' hose reel over head. the compressor likes it down there any how less humidity than in the garage in the summer.

[Tuned55]

schedule 40 woorks just fine inside in a home shop

[mickeywestsr]

I've thought about plumbing my garage with Sch 40 but wasn't too sure it would hold the pressure. bowtie-trifive

[bryant weldon]

I also used Schedule 40 in my shop. Works for me.:bowtieb:

[mickeywestsr]

I will run Sch 40 this winter. What I have for now is rubber air line run around the ceiling from my compressor to connections in the wall for the outside lift. Thanks for the posts Guys. bowtie-trifive

[Earlc]

I have schedule 40 in my shop, been there quite a few years, holds the pressure fine just make sure to give it a couple of hours before turning the air on:bowtieb:

[Old Buzzard]

I had sched 40... after a few yrs, got brittle from the temp and pressure cycles, and started to fail...No more plastic in my shop[s]. Copper only. A few bucks more? Yep. Will be there when they plant me....

[D.S.]

If you go with the schedule 40 pvc there are a couple grades of it, read the pressure rating on the pipe and fittings... My local Lowe's carries the high and low pressure grades, both say schedule 40... They only have the fittings in the low pressure drain quality though, had to find the good ones at another hardware store...

[Busted_Knuckles]

Thanks for all the input lots of good info. I had thought about using schedule 40 or schedule 80 pvc but i was concerned that it would get brittle in the cold. Even though the shop is heated unless I am working out there I turn the heat way down or even just turn it off as do to the size of the shop it's just too expensive to keep it heated so I figured the PVC would get brittle in the cold and result in a disaster as soon as I fired up the compressor.
One guy I know brought up what I thought was a good point. He said unlike copper when it bursts a pipe will just split open PVC on the other hand will shatter cold potentially be a dangerous situation.

[USA1]

I had sched 40... after a few yrs, got brittle from the temp and pressure cycles, and started to fail...No more plastic in my shop[s]. Copper only. A few bucks more? Yep. Will be there when they plant me....

This is what happened at my shop and others I have seen.

[57 Bel Air LS7]

Copper only for me. I have seen the results of PVC shattering and it is potentially deadly. In addition to the safety factor, copper is easy to work with (and change if you need to), won't rust like iron or flake like galvinized and will cool better to condense the moisture faster. If you pipe it correctly, more of the moisture will go to the drain drops and not to your air tools. And like Buzzard said, it'll be there until I'm planted. :rolleyes:

[pistoncan]

I was planning on running iron pipe in my shop (I have a hand held pipe threader) but I saw a air line system listed in the eastwood catalog that uses black high pressure hose and special fittings, has anyone tried this stuff?
Gary

[Troy]

I've had PVC in my garage for 10 years no problem yet.

[57-Geez]

Before we moved our printing business we had pvc on the walls in the old shop. I have personally seen it explode do to someone hitting it accidentally. Yes it was old and probably more brittle than new pipe, but I decided at the new facility that we would only use copper or steel pipe.

I used copper in my home garage, 3/4 inch and ran it up in the crawl space, then connected to a 50 retractable reel, also have a few drops around the garage for extra lines. I have a 1/2 line hookup at the compressor tank for the blast cabinet, it likes a little more air.

Good luck
Be safe, in most cases your talking about 125 to 175 PSI in your system, stepped down to 90 or 100, be safe.

Gil

[Chevynut]

Pressure ratings and more:

http://www.ejprescott.com/reference/PVCSch40PresPipeA-35.pdf

[55ChevDelray]

Pressure ratings and more:

http://www.ejprescott.com/reference/PVCSch40PresPipeA-35.pdf

Reference has a caution to not use for compressed air or gas. Copper or Black pipe seems safest.

[busterwivell]

Hmmmmmmmm.......I've had sched 40 in my shop for 13 or 14 years and never had a problem.

[paul crawford]

OSHA will allow pvc for air lines BUT it is to be in a steel liner due the the possibility of it shattering. I have it in my shop but I shut the compressor off everyday when I am done. I used the heavy duty (blue) cement and haven't had any problems. FYI

[MightyMouse57]

I have seen a lot of shops here using schedule 40 plastic pipe with no problems. It is cheap and easy to fabricate.

My brother in law did this in garage and worked great, it didn't have constant pressure on it though. He used the real high pressure stuff (schedule 80?).

[Chevynut]

I think I might spend a little extra for the schedule 80. I wouldn't be so concerned about a blowout given the high pressure ratings in the table. I'd be concerned about hitting it with something and having it shatter, especially after years of heat from the compressor and time to get brittle. And it does get more brittle with time.

One downside to a plastic line is that the air won't cool as fast, so it's harder to get moisture out of it unless you use a refrigerated air cooler.

[55ChevDelray]

http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html

[zonker]

I am a pipefitter "by trade" if you go with copper use type L or schedule 40 black pipe. PVC "NO WAY". One more thing be sure to add dirt legs on your take-offs (tee, nipple & cap) Good Luck

[55chevr]

some interesting stuff here ... NYC code requires air lines to be black pipe ... cant use copper or even galvanized pipe ... street pressure for domestic water in the city is in the 80 psi range and that can be iron or copper no pex but I think pex would be the way to go ... I wouldnt use pvc ... especially with solvent joints ... Joe

[ROXROD]

cVr9TuaK6TU

[nhramike57]

I installed plastic wirsbo lines 7 years ago..no joints to thread , glue or leak ..rated to 165 psi (compressors regulated to 85 psi for airtools). eight outlets off of a manifold..each with a 120v plug in a double gang box :)

http://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1709&pictureid=17766

[Busted_Knuckles]

After speaking with the guy in charge of the plumbing department at my local Lowes this afternoon and doing some research on my own I think I am going with CPVC unlike regular pvc schedule 40 or 80 it will not splinter which is why the code allows an entire house to be plumbed in it, where standard pvc can only be used for waste lines. (a little home improvement DYI piece of triva)
It is rated at 400psi @ 730F so I think that will fall with in the heat range of this horrid state..............lol and one of the sweetest things is it is about 1/3rd the cost of copper. It's glued up the same way standard pvc is and pretty much looks the same except for the off white color and the extra wall thickness.

I would still like to hear if anyone has ever used CPVC pipe before as I can't imagine I am the only one.

[pistoncan]

cVr9TuaK6TU

This is the stuff I saw in the eastwood catalog Looks pretty slick to me.

[BIG-BLUE]

My shop has all copper lines. Other than price it's a great way to go. Easy to install and you don't have to worry about it shattering. I have seen pvc shcedule 40 shatter & I can assure you it is not pretty if your close by. So please beware.

[Danny F]

I put 3/4"" copper pipe all along my shop ceiling with several 1/2" drop downs with fittings over 12 years ago.
Never had any problems.
Air pressurised PVC sounds like a bomb going off when it bursts.
A co-worker just about had a seizure years ago when one burst.
I always consider safety over price. :) Danny

[MP&C]

I find it amusing that all the proponents of using PVC, no matter what forum you go to, state......" I have had my PVC air lines installed for XX years with no problems at all".......as if to dispel any other information you may be given of how hazardous it really is. I just wish you guys would continue with your story and provide all the information.


Is it cheaper.......YES

Is it recommended by the manufacturer......NO. Actually they have stated PVC is NOT to be used for compressed air. The PSI ratings you read are for liquid, not compressed gases. There is a difference.

Is it against the law.......In a commercial setting OSHA will fine your business and require replacement with approved piping. Where they don't have jurisdiction over your home garage, the same laws of physics apply as to why it should not be used. Keep your fingers crossed and safety glasses on.


The manufacturer knows of its limitations and warns against using PVC with compressed air as it is a safety hazard and product liability. No offense, but all the guys online providing the positive feedback without telling the complete story should assume liability for their promotion of a product for use other than its intent. Someone gets hurt, you pay the medical bills. Sorry for the rant, but I'm quite sure you guys know it shouldn't be used. Tell the whole story so someone can make a truly informed decision or quit promoting it.

[bsb1955]

I am glad to see this thread on what to use on shop air lines. :tu I previously would have thought nothing about using PVC until I read the stuff posted here. There will be no PVC in my shop lines (once I get to that project!) Brian:bowtieb:

[Busted_Knuckles]

There is a difference between PVC and CPVC and from what I understand any type of pipe be it copper, steel, pvc or what ever will always hold more liquid pressure then gas pressure. So if it's rated at 450 liquid psi running standard shop air @ 125 -150psi shouldn't propose a problem. According to the manufacture CPVC pipe will not shatter and splinter like PVC pipe will.
You bring up many valid points though and agreed it should not always be about the dollars that drives one's decision.

[bsb1955]

Never heard of CPVC until this thread was posted. I will have to google it online and check it out, read the specs and get some prices too. Brian:bowtieb:

[bsb1955]

Well, here is some info on the capabilities of CPVC:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/cpvc-pipes-pressures-d_240.html

Still, I am not an engineer, just a shade tree mechanic, so I will still have to do some more research. Anyone got any experience with CPVC? :confused0006: Brian :bowtieb:

[pistoncan]

I find it amusing that all the proponents of using PVC, no matter what forum you go to, state......" I have had my PVC air lines installed for XX years with no problems at all".......as if to dispel any other information you may be given of how hazardous it really is. I just wish you guys would continue with your story and provide all the information.


Is it cheaper.......YES

Is it recommended by the manufacturer......NO. Actually they have stated PVC is NOT to be used for compressed air. The PSI ratings you read are for liquid, not compressed gases. There is a difference.

Is it against the law.......In a commercial setting OSHA will fine your business and require replacement with approved piping. Where they don't have jurisdiction over your home garage, the same laws of physics apply as to why it should not be used. Keep your fingers crossed and safety glasses on.


The manufacturer knows of its limitations and warns against using PVC with compressed air as it is a safety hazard and product liability. No offense, but all the guys online providing the positive feedback without telling the complete story should assume liability for their promotion of a product for use other than its intent. Someone gets hurt, you pay the medical bills. Sorry for the rant, but I'm quite sure you guys know it shouldn't be used. Tell the whole story so someone can make a truly informed decision or quit promoting it.

Well said, Robert

[roughneck424]

I find it amusing that all the proponents of using PVC, no matter what forum you go to, state......" I have had my PVC air lines installed for XX years with no problems at all".......as if to dispel any other information you may be given of how hazardous it really is. I just wish you guys would continue with your story and provide all the information.


Is it cheaper.......YES

Is it recommended by the manufacturer......NO. Actually they have stated PVC is NOT to be used for compressed air. The PSI ratings you read are for liquid, not compressed gases. There is a difference.

Is it against the law.......In a commercial setting OSHA will fine your business and require replacement with approved piping. Where they don't have jurisdiction over your home garage, the same laws of physics apply as to why it should not be used. Keep your fingers crossed and safety glasses on.


The manufacturer knows of its limitations and warns against using PVC with compressed air as it is a safety hazard and product liability. No offense, but all the guys online providing the positive feedback without telling the complete story should assume liability for their promotion of a product for use other than its intent. Someone gets hurt, you pay the medical bills. Sorry for the rant, but I'm quite sure you guys know it shouldn't be used. Tell the whole story so someone can make a truly informed decision or quit promoting it.

Know Safety = No Accident
No Safety = Know Accident

[zonker]

After speaking with the guy in charge of the plumbing department at my local Lowes this afternoon and doing some research on my own I think I am going with CPVC unlike regular pvc schedule 40 or 80 it will not splinter which is why the code allows an entire house to be plumbed in it, where standard pvc can only be used for waste lines. (a little home improvement DYI piece of triva)
It is rated at 400psi @ 730F so I think that will fall with in the heat range of this horrid state..............lol and one of the sweetest things is it is about 1/3rd the cost of copper. It's glued up the same way standard pvc is and pretty much looks the same except for the off white color and the extra wall thickness.

I would still like to hear if anyone has ever used CPVC pipe before as I can't imagine I am the only one.

NO NO NO!!! do not use PVC or CPVC for compressed air!!!!!! in regards to pressure ratings there is a big difference between liquid under pressure and gas under pressure from what I've read do you and your family a favor and hire a plumber/pipefitter to install the air line it may set you back a couple of bucks but you'll stay safe.

[cffisher]

Copper or black pipe is realy the only way to go.... For one thing you can get more presure out of air than liquid. Air will compress ,Liquid will not. PVC can kill you if used improperly(air) your just playing with a time bomb. Spen the money for real pipe or your wife will spend it for a big box.

[D.C.]

As with all tips and info on chat boards ya gotta read between the lines. Everyone has the best intentions to help and provide whatever knowledge and experience they can and this board is no exception. However that knowledge base can vary from person to person and of course subject to subject. This debate is no exception, but to put it clearly based on everyone's experiences and comments here is the answer in terms we can all understand. You have a tri five with a 300hp small block and the time has come to consider rear diff strength and durability. If you cruise around, get ice cream, have stock sized tires, and never race, the stock setup works fine. This is PVC for a guy that always turns the compressor off and uses it a few times a month. If you like to have fun with your 300hp small block, do the odd burn out, have big fat sticky tires, and get the odd speeding ticket you need a Ford 9 inch. Copper air lines are a ford 9 inch. This is for a guy who likes to know it will never break no matter what and uses it all the time. Pick what setup is best for you and know it's limitations.

[Rick_L]

The difference is if you use a stock rear behind a BBC, and you break the gear, most of the time you are not in harm's way. If a PVC air line explodes and you are in the shop, it can kill you right now.

[picker45]

I've read up on airlines for my shop and will go with copper. I would go with Black Pipe first and foremost, but I'm not a Business just a hobbyist.
The same fella's that we praise for their talented work and knowledge are now telling everyone "Not" to use PVC due to it's dangers. I for one would take this same advise as I see them give in reference to the work they show us on this site.
TP Tools website, who sells sandblast cabinets and compressors have a tips area that shows the diagram (and you can print it) for running airlines in Shops. They also tell you the pros and cons to Black pipe, copper, galvanized, PVC and they recomend Black Pipe. PVC shouldn't be used at all, CPVC I guess cause it's rated, but the con to using cpvc is you can't get rid of the moisture.
I'ts just like anything, just because you haven't had a problem with it doesn't make it right, it just means your lucky it hasn't blown yet. I read the manufacture's specs on PVC and it's not recommended at all. Sure you can use it but you still have moisture, I don't want moisture in my tools or in my paint, nor a chance of an accident where someone gets injured
Bob H

[dennis55]

I have been watching this thread with interest as it develops. I agree with everyone who maintains that PVC is not appropriate for compressed air, for all the reasons stated. Do you really trust the guy in the Lowe's plumbing department with your personal safety?

The shop I make my living with (cabinetry) has copper pipe. I use it for it's durability and relative ease of use, but I know how to sweat a joint. It also provides the most air volume for a given diameter of pipe. That's very important in my shop. That said, when I built my "car spa" for the '55, I used this product:

http://www.rapidairproducts.com/rapidair.asp

Even though my car shop is attached to my commercial building, I didn't want the extra expense of the copper. I also wanted to bury the lines in the wall - here's a picture of the rough-in before sheetrock:

http://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=501&pictureid=18250

For about $130 you can get the "Master Kit" which is a manifold, two outlet ports (very nice billet aluminum), fittings and 100' of flexible tubing. The system is rated to 150 psi, the fittings are all push-lock. Super easy to install or reconfigure. And no, I don't work for RapidAir.... :D Check it out, it works as advertised.

[oceangoer]

I'm just finishing my shop and house.

The shop garage is fully insulated with all plumbing, gas lines, and air line
in the walls.


MY neighbor is recently retired county bulding inspector. And he knows the
long term failures.


HE told me to use copper only.


HIS reasons

The air lines will be IN the walls, with a 1/4 inch per foot drop with a
water drain at teh ends. I'm starting with 3/4 inch of the main feeds.


The various plastics can fail over time. Which wouild be a disaster when
installed in the walls.

So, I'm not installing major lengths of copper tubing,

So I'm for Copper..

Michael...

[Sledgehammer]

If you decide with black pipe, you can always get your own pipe threader and make the lengths you want.

It's all about D.I.Y. right?

[Busted_Knuckles]

Well lets say my decison wa smade for me, After talkign about what I was planning on doing with the CPVC etc. in the shop over a couple of cold one's one night out int he shop with a few buddies the one guy said no problme leave it up to me. I hooked him up wiht a small block for his son's 55 pick up. The next afternoon he showed up with i his son's 55 and a load of 3/4" copper pipe and fittings. I siad ok thi sis cook but whats it gonna cost me. He told me the same price u charged us for the small block $0! Sweet was all I oculd say, it does pay to have good friends

[Bilaire]

Copper is good. Which ever you use, make sure of the following:
1 - Make sure that there is a pitch to you line runs. ( 1" over 4 Feet)
2 - On the low side of your line runs have a down run off the bottom of the run with a valve to blow off the water accumulation.
3 - Always run you feed lines to equipment off the top of the runs (at least 2 inches above) to help prevent picking up water in your equipment (Paint guns Etc..)
4 - Make it a habit to ALWAYS blow off the water at the ends of you run lines PRIOR to using. It has been known to have water flooding every thing insight, especially when the humidity is high.
And of course you know to blow off your compressor before and after using.


Bill
__________________

[mickeywestsr]

I had just made up my mind to go with the PVC until I read these posts. Guys, thanks for keeping me from making a huge mistake.

[zonker]

Well lets say my decison wa smade for me, After talkign about what I was planning on doing with the CPVC etc. in the shop over a couple of cold one's one night out int he shop with a few buddies the one guy said no problme leave it up to me. I hooked him up wiht a small block for his son's 55 pick up. The next afternoon he showed up with i his son's 55 and a load of 3/4" copper pipe and fittings. I siad ok thi sis cook but whats it gonna cost me. He told me the same price u charged us for the small block $0! Sweet was all I oculd say, it does pay to have good friends

:congrats: Very Cool!!!

[warren57]

As a mechanical contractor, I would discourage pvc, as under pressure it tends to swell and has a given elasticity. Once you exceed the point of elasticity, it basically explodes and shoots plastic splinters in every direction. You're probably fine at low pressure. Point in case, while testing pvc containment piping few years ago for FORD in Denver, the specification called for a 150# air test. Thank GOD no one was in the area when it blew.
I have used copper on several of my own projects as well as many projects for the company. Much cleaner air than black iron and no future rust particles.
Not really that expensive. A 3/4" line with fittings and valves should cost around $1.00 per lf.
Good luck...

[first 56]

How about something like this?

http://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools/air-accessories/complete-garage-air-kit-66747.html

It looks like the Rapidair product. has anybody used this?
Scott

[Chrome Lugnut]

I have been watching this thread with interest as it develops. I agree with everyone who maintains that PVC is not appropriate for compressed air, for all the reasons stated. Do you really trust the guy in the Lowe's plumbing department with your personal safety?

The shop I make my living with (cabinetry) has copper pipe. I use it for it's durability and relative ease of use, but I know how to sweat a joint. It also provides the most air volume for a given diameter of pipe. That's very important in my shop. That said, when I built my "car spa" for the '55, I used this product:

http://www.rapidairproducts.com/rapidair.asp

Even though my car shop is attached to my commercial building, I didn't want the extra expense of the copper. I also wanted to bury the lines in the wall - here's a picture of the rough-in before sheetrock:

http://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=501&pictureid=18250

For about $130 you can get the "Master Kit" which is a manifold, two outlet ports (very nice billet aluminum), fittings and 100' of flexible tubing. The system is rated to 150 psi, the fittings are all push-lock. Super easy to install or reconfigure. And no, I don't work for RapidAir.... :D Check it out, it works as advertised.

Hope you did not close the joints up in the wall. We have equipment at work that uses this kind of fitting on the air lines. 99% of the time they great BUT I have see them come apart all by them-self. No problem for us as they not buried in a wall. Looks like all the air lines in the Plant are copper.