Replacing quarters...need advice (Hotroddder, MP&C??)

[Chevynut]

I'm getting ready to hack my Nomad quarters off and replace them. I'm starting on the passenger side, because it needs it the worst.

Unfortunately, for some reason they don't make wagon quarters, choosing instead to make a more complicated die with the dip in it. Seems like they could modify their die to make it modular and easily make wagon quarters. My luck, they'll have them right when I'm done with these. :rolleyes:

Anyhow, since the wagons don't have the dip I have to remove it from the new metal. What a waste. :(

I'm trying to figure out where to cut the old quarter off and have a few questions. I measured where the dip starts and I get 27" back from the jamb. That's a long ways, it seems. Is that about right? Also, the dip doesn't go away until I get down to the long trim line (56 BA).....might get away with going to the upper trim line and just straightening the metal. Any inputs?

When removing the quarter, do you take it off all the way to the tailight, or just in front of it? I know most guys take it off to behind the door jamb, not into the jamb...but what about the light? My jamb will need some work too.

I'm really questioning my sanity in doing this, because my quarters are pretty good now, and could probably be made better. But I've gotten so far into this that I want to do it right. Both quarters have "issues" with old creases, stretched metal, and damaged wheelwell lips. So I made the decision to replace them. Hope that's the right decision. :eek: :D

[Chevynut]

Hotroddder, I remembered seeing some of your quarter replacement pics on CT, so I went and looked. It does seem like you cut it pretty far back, and I commented on it. That was in January, and I said I'd be doing mine "pretty soon"....LOL!! Good think I don't have to answer to a boss on this. :eek:.

Noticed you made the cut to the long stainless line. Did you really have to go that low?

[Hotroddder]

I'm trying to figure out where to cut the old quarter off and have a few questions. I measured where the dip starts and I get 27" back from the jamb. That's a long ways, it seems. Is that about right? Also, the dip doesn't go away until I get down to the long trim line (56 BA).....might get away with going to the upper trim line and just straightening the metal. Any inputs?

When removing the quarter, do you take it off all the way to the tail light, or just in front of it? I know most guys take it off to behind the door jamb, not into the jamb...but what about the light? My jamb will need some work too.

I'm really questioning my sanity in doing this, because my quarters are pretty good now, and could probably be made better. But I've gotten so far into this that I want to do it right. Both quarters have "issues" with old creases, stretched metal, and damaged wheel well lips. So I made the decision to replace them. Hope that's the right decision. :eek: :D

It seemed that on the 56 Nomad I had to cut further back to clear the belt line dip. I also went all the way back to the tail light on both sides, but had to replace the passenger side as it stuck back 1/4" further than stock. So I cut and replaced the tail light opening with an original which is formed much better.

Also since the factory quarter on a Nomad only goes in one step on the jamb, I replicated that. I did have to rework the jamb edge to get the radius much tighter.

I like to use as much new metal as possible as long is it cooperate in shape. Don't be surprised if things don't line up here or there and don't be too quick to start welding. You might take several days to be happy with the fit. I bet I put on and took off the drivers quarter on the 56 Nomad 50 times before I liked it.

Good Luck

Hotroddder

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL752/3147329/6644793/85600781.jpg
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL752/3147329/13561856/219602793.jpg

[Rick_L]

I'm no real expert on this, but I think you have the right approach with your plan and hotrodder's suggestions. I.e., part of the weld seam under the stainless, keeping the taillight, and doing the jamb that way.

Another choice would be a vertical seam 1/2" or so back from the door jamb, leaving the original door jamb there.

[Chevynut]

Thanks Hotroddder and Rick.

I just looked at the taillight opening and the original is much sharper around it than the new panel. Same with the door jamb. I can't believe they took all the effort to tool these things up and make them so crappy. They could have tooled the fenderwell lip and basic panel curvature and we'd still have what we needed....for a lot less money. It sucks to have to cut up a $750 piece of sheetmetal so much just to make it work and look right.

Anyhow, I'm thinking that I'll keep the original taillight area and cut about 1" forward all the way around. My passenger jamb was messed up by warpage from gas brazing and I rebuilt it years ago with lead, so I'm not sure what I want to do there. I may have to cut part of it off at the second bend and find a replacement piece.

Hotroddder, do you happen to have any cutoff jambs that you removed from repop quarters? What I need is about 1/2" benind the jamb, all the way inside to the bend inboard of the door bumper. I may have to go to the salvage yard and cut a piece off of a car if I can't find one. Anyone with a cut-up parts car that has a good piece? :)

[Chevynut]

Hotroddder, how high up did you make the seam? How far below the windows? It looks like it's near the top.

[Hotroddder]

Thanks Hotroddder and Rick.

I just looked at the taillight opening and the original is much sharper around it than the new panel. Same with the door jamb. I can't believe they took all the effort to tool these things up and make them so crappy. They could have tooled the fenderwell lip and basic panel curvature and we'd still have what we needed....for a lot less money. It sucks to have to cut up a $750 piece of sheetmetal so much just to make it work and look right.

Anyhow, I'm thinking that I'll keep the original taillight area and cut about 1" forward all the way around. My passenger jamb was messed up by warpage from gas brazing and I rebuilt it years ago with lead, so I'm not sure what I want to do there. I may have to cut part of it off at the second bend and find a replacement piece.

Hotroddder, do you happen to have any cutoff jambs that you removed from repop quarters? What I need is about 1/2" benind the jamb, all the way inside to the bend inboard of the door bumper. I may have to go to the salvage yard and cut a piece off of a car if I can't find one. Anyone with a cut-up parts car that has a good piece? :)

I don't have any pieces left, but I'm not sure what you are looking for. I do have a 55 pontiac 2 door H/T parts car that has some of the jamb in good shape. Can you get me to understand what you are looking for? Also, the Nomad jamb is different, at least at the bottom from other cars.:confused: :confused: :confused:

Hotroddder

[Hotroddder]

Hotroddder, how high up did you make the seam? How far below the windows? It looks like it's near the top.

On the 57 I ran it about 1-1/2" down from the top. On the 56 I ran it about 3/4" from the window ridge. A but weld with little to no gap. I tried to place the weld in a place where I could grind and hammer it from the top and bottom. Grinding the weld underneath was a bit challenging. Do you have the wheelhouses out at this time, if not you might consider that. I was able to weld, grind and hammer all but the last 6" by the tail light area. Also be careful grinding from the bottom, it is very easy to grind the weld thin if you use a 2" die grinder like I did. Lesson learned.......

[Hotroddder]

One more thing, I had to rework the bend along the bottom, not bent correctly to line up with the inner rocker. This was the case on the 57 and the 55.

[Chevynut]

Hotroddder, thanks again. Yes, my outer wheelhouses are out, and I'll need to rebuild them to match the 4" tubs while the quarters are off.

I just noticed that the door bumper is LOWER on a Nomad than a HT, so a piece of the repop metal probably won't really help me anyhow My rebuilt jamb looked just like stock (I welded and leaded it) so I'll probably try to preserve it, as much as I would have liked to replace it. I know the Nomad jambs are unique, but I never imagined that the bumper would be in a different place.

Do you think going 3/4" instead of the 1 1/2" was better? I cut the original quarter about 3" down for now, and will trim both the new and old to match.

[Chevynut]

Well, no going back now!!! :eek:

Here's what she looks like with a rough cut.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/4009142/251563011.jpg

Looking better already!!!

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/4009142/251563008.jpg

I still have a lot of trimming, fitting, welding and grinding to do, but I'm on the way. :D

Hotroddder, I made the cut at the upper trim instead of the lower like you did. There was a very, very slight dip there, but I figured I could minimize the length of the weld if I did it there. and the warpage is going to be WAY more significant than the dip. I can work it all out with hammer and dolly.

I think I ended up about 24" back at the top. Sure is purty new metal. :D

[MP&C]

Laszlo, sorry I missed your post yesterday, was in Eastern Shore of MD all day. The issue I had with the qtrs on the 55 was they were about 1/4 to 3/8 too long, and like Hotrodder said, I wanted to put as much new metal in as I could, so I did replace the wrap into the jamb, and just cut and butt welded just behind the jamb as Rick suggested. I think all the replacement stuff has less crisp of lines on this bend, which is why most guys will leave the original and butt weld their seam behind the door. So while the quarter is off, go ahead and get your body hammers out and fix that non-crisp edge. May need to make a dolly out of a slightly dulled out cold chisel, and gently work the bend.

As far as the tail light area, that is another spot that seems to catch the road debris over the years and may show it with rust. If yours is in good condition, I would check the fit of the new sheetmetal you have mocked up there on the car to the light housing to see how well that fits, and then decide which way you want to go. Even if you have to crisp up the tail light area'a creases on the new metal as well, it may be less welding/finishing that way, but again, a judgement call based on what's in front of you. That new metal sure does look nice, the primer will be mixed up in no time. :cool:

[Hotroddder]

Lookin good so far.......

Hotroddder

[Chevynut]

Robert, I'm really disappointed that these sheetmetal manufacturers can't make "replacement" sheetmetal. The taillight area was a place that I thought I'd line up and cut at the door jamb. Unfortunately, the detail around the light is rounded as bad as the jamb. I wonder why they can't make it as sharp as stock. Hell, they could do it 50+ years ago with the old crap they had back then, but they can't make decent replacements with today's state-of-the-art presses. Makes you wonder why they go to all the trouble to tool these areas. They should sell you a piece of the quarter without the jamb, taillight or the "dip" for 1/3 the price. These things cost TWICE as much as the floors, and the floors have a lot more tooling involved and about the same amount of metal.

Okay, enough bitchin'. :eek: This quarter appears to be about 3/8" too long as well, so I need to cut one end or the other, or both. My tailight area is totally rust-free, so I'm lucky there. It would be less welding if I just removed the old sheetmetal and spot-welded the quarter to the taillight bracket, but I'm not sure if I like the rounded bends on the new stuff. I left about 1" around the taillight, so I may just weld it there.

I just noticed that the flange on the bottom of the quarter doesn't go far enough over to contact the inner rocker either, once I have it covering the outer rocker like it's supposed to be either. I'm using CARS inner and outer rockers, so I don't know why it doesn't fit. Did you have any problems there? Hotroddder, is this what you meant about working the bottom of the quarter?

[Hotroddder]

I had to reshape the angle along the bottom of the quarter, and I also had to slit panel where it goes over the outer rocker in order to get it to meet the inner rocker. After a while, you just grab the cutoff tool and go at it without much thinking.

I agree that if someone made a factory replacement quarter that actually was built correctly I would gladly pay double the price of the poorly made stuff we get today.

I can only hope that with CARS building the 57 Convert bodies that someone will actually care about the fitup of the parts made. I once called CARS in Michigan to find out if a long brace was manufactured correctly and was told that they do not have any drawings or blueprints to look at or compare to. They just stamp them and sell them. I would guess that the fellows putting the Converts together are swearing as much as we are

[Chevynut]

I worked on the area below the tailight tonight and got the seam separated. I also tried again to make the lower quarter match the rocker, with no luck. It seems that both the quarter and outer rocker have the indent in them so the quarter sits higher than the rocker. Why did they do it that way? I thought the indent in the rocker was for the quarter to lay IN it so they'd be flush.

The lower vertical flanges (quarter flange and inner rocker flange) are at least 3/8" from meeting at the rear of the outer rocker. Any suggestions as to what to do there?

I thought I could line up the trim holes in the new and old quarter to locate the new one, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Once I get everything located where I want it, I'll need to cut both the old panel and new panel to make them match. Someone once told me to take a thin cutoff weel and cut through both of them at the same time. Does that work? It makes me a little nervous trying that, because if it's not exactly right you don't have enough metal left. I have usually scribed and cut one panel to match.

[Chevynut]

I agree that if someone made a factory replacement quarter that actually was built correctly I would gladly pay double the price of the poorly made stuff we get today.

Actually, for the price we pay for these we should get stuff that fits. This stuff should be half the price it is as poor as it is. :rolleyes:

Wish I could find a pair of NOS factory quarters. Surely there are some around somewhere.....CARS ought to use them for models to make their molds after.

About the only thing I like about these is the fenderwell lips. :rolleyes:

I guess I'll just keep cutting and pounding until it's right. Thanks for any tips you can give me.

[Hotroddder]

I worked on the area below the tailight tonight and got the seam separated. I also tried again to make the lower quarter match the rocker, with no luck. It seems that both the quarter and outer rocker have the indent in them so the quarter sits higher than the rocker. Why did they do it that way? I thought the indent in the rocker was for the quarter to lay IN it so they'd be flush.

You will need to remove this indent/flange and overlap the rocker.

The lower vertical flanges (quarter flange and inner rocker flange) are at least 3/8" from meeting at the rear of the outer rocker. Any suggestions as to what to do there?

On most of the ones that I have done, this part of teh panel hangs down too low. So by reshaping it it was close to the inner rocker and brace. Clamp together with some vicegrips and see what gives and go from there.

I thought I could line up the trim holes in the new and old quarter to locate the new one, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

The passenger side on my current project came out a bit low, but the drivers side was right on.

Once I get everything located where I want it, I'll need to cut both the old panel and new panel to make them match. Someone once told me to take a thin cutoff wheel and cut through both of them at the same time. Does that work? It makes me a little nervous trying that, because if it's not exactly right you don't have enough metal left. I have usually scribed and cut one panel to match.

I have tried both. When I cut through both panels it did not work well because the overlay-ed panel was not fitting close enough so I had to trim the cut. Better than the other option. I usually trim one nice and straight and scribe it onto the other and then take it off and on a million times to get things trimmed right. Take you time here, a mistake means gaps or filler pieces that will cause you problems in the end.

Hotroddder

.

[MP&C]

I'll go along with the same thing Hotroddder says, I'll usually trim one side, align the panel and scribe a line, and trim the next. On your rocker and quarter joint, hammer & dolly the step flange back flat again on the quarter, you may need to rework the creases going into the door jamb to get it to fit up snug like it should. A little massaging and it should fit over the rocker nicely. I have to agree with you on the stamping quality, but I guess they figure as long as their's is better than the imported stuff, they have nothing to worry about. :rolleyes:

[Sweden]

Hi

I had the same problem when i replaced the driver quarter it was too long.

I have started on passenger side now so i hope it will fit better there.

About bad fitting i changed the outer wheel wells and this is where i have to mount them to make the extension to fit to the quarter.

1209 1210

[Rick_L]

"but they can't make decent replacements with today's state-of-the-art presses."

I don't think that "state-of-the-art" processes are much better for things like fenders and quarters. Modern processes are more precise and quicker for shearing, punching, and bending, but I'm not thinking much has changed for forming contours. Especially with a tooling cost that is in line with the retail costs we see for parts.

Earlier in the week we were discussing how bad the factory parts fit together resulting in poor gaps. About the only thing they did better was the crisp lines at the bends.

If you look at how a modern car body is put together, most use a wide welt on the top seam so that they cover up all their fit problems. Thought has been put into how to make more forgiving joints and seams that don't require accuracy or hand fitting of the parts.

And yes, anybody doing a "new" 57 convertible is up against this in a big way. So are the guys with those 69 Camaro clones.

[MikeKy55]

On your rocker and quarter joint, hammer & dolly the step flange back flat again on the quarter, you may need to rework the creases going into the door jamb to get it to fit up snug like it should.

I have found the same thing. It's like both pieces are female. I just ironed the quater side out so it fit into the rocker as it did originally. It's a pain, but a labor of love all the same.

[Hotroddder]

Hi

I had the same problem when i replaced the driver quarter it was too long.

I have started on passenger side now so i hope it will fit better there.

About bad fitting i changed the outer wheel wells and this is where i have to mount them to make the extension to fit to the quarter.

1209 1210

It looks like you might have a wagon extension. I have never seen a aftermarket panel fit that bad.......

Hotroddder

[Sweden]

Hi Lazlo

i have no intention to steal your post, i totally agree that the aftermarket sheet metal have a very bad fitting and wanted to show how parts from CARS INC fits badly.


Hi Hotroddder

I orderd all parts to a hardtop and it was the same thing on the driver side.
Here is the parts i orded from CARS INC.



121312141215

[Hotroddder]

Hi Lazlo



Hi Hotroddder

I orderd all parts to a hardtop and it was the same thing on the driver side.
Here is the parts i orded from CARS INC.




The bottom one circled sure looks like a wagon. I could not read the description very well so I am not positive. The parts are sometimes poorly made, but I have never seen one that far off unless I am trying to use something made for another model to work somewhere they don't make parts for.

[Sweden]

Hi

Maybe i recived the wrong parts i dont know.

This is what i orderd from CARS INC.

Maybe this is easier to see.

1222

[Chevynut]

Here's what my lower quarter looks like. I haven't taken the recess out of it yet (haven't worked much on it lately) but it's far from reaching the inner rocker. The rocker is 2 7/8" wide and the quarter is 2 5/8". Both parts made by the same company. Wouldn't you think they'd match better? :rolleyes:

I think my plan is to flatten the flange out, weld on an extension, and re-bend it so it fits then grind flush on the seam. Seems that's better than slitting the quarter and welding it back up, but I'm not sure. :confused:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/4009142/252454751.jpg

[MikeKy55]

think my plan is to flatten the flange out, weld on an extension, and re-bend it so it fits then grind flush on the seam.

Would be my choice Laszlo. It will give you a better finished product. Plus having the panel on a bench will make adding a piece pretty simple.

[Chevynut]

I'm at an indecision point with my quarter panel, and I can't seem to get past it. I have been trying to decide whether to cut my taillight area out of the new panel or use it. The detail isn't nearly as crisp as stock, so I'd have to rework it anyway. I have cut the stock metal about 1" from the taillight opening, but I'm not sure what I want to do from here.

I have always thought I wanted to eliminate the rubber seal and match the quarter to the taillight, but it looks like a helluva lot of work and the bezel on my new Gene Smith taillights doesn't seem to be too smooth along the edge. It's frustrating...these things are $450 a pair! I suppose they don't plan on having people use them "naked". But the rubber seal is a PITA.

Have any of you tried to match the quarter to the light? I would probably lead it. Problem is the quarter seems quite a bit bigger than the light bezel.

I need to get past this so I can get the quarter fitted, but I'm not sure which way to go. :confused:

[Rick_L]

"Have any of you tried to match the quarter to the light?"

I did on my 55, it's just 1/2 scale compared to a 56. I used a combination of hammer and dolly, and All Metal filler. On the 55 I found that carefully choosing the taillight housing (the part that doesn't show) made a big difference. I went through about 4 pairs of taillight housings until I got a pair that fit. Looks like the factory reworked 55 taillight housings on the line to make them fit, as they all were different. You won't have that choice on your 56.

[Chevynut]

Rick, I think the difference is that the 55 doesn't use a rubber gasket on the light anyhow, right? So it's made to fit that way. On a 56 there is pretty large piece of rubber that closes the gap between the quarter and the light bezel. Not only is it a pain to install, but I've seen several of them that look really bad because they don't lay flat. It just seems like the quarter panel opening is quite a bit larger than the light. I have a few sets of stock ones, so maybe I'll try them to see if they fit better....then I'll have to get them re-chromed.

Here's Foose's car they did at WyoTech where I first saw this done....looks really clean (I didn't get a pic of the whole light). BTW, that "SpeedAir" emblem is airbrushed :) :

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/840294/75087992.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/840294/75087981.jpg

[Hotroddder]

Have any of you tried to match the quarter to the light? I would probably lead it. Problem is the quarter seems quite a bit bigger than the light bezel.

I need to get past this so I can get the quarter fitted, but I'm not sure which way to go. :confused:

I am doing that on the 56 Nomad. I used a old set of bezels and blocked the quarters to them. I made sure that the new ones match closely after the blocking. Should work out pretty nice. Another thing that I did was to install some adjusting screws (man I love these things) into the flanges where the tail lights mount to. I also tack welded on some limiting tabs to control the top and bottom of the bezel. Now I can mount the tail light in a defined spot and location time after time. When the tail light is installed I plan on gluing a 1/8" thick hard foam rubber along the tail light flange on the body with it protruding a bit past the paint. Then this will be carefully trimmed after the light is installed. Hope this works as good as I plan.......

Hotroddder

[Chevynut]

Hotroddder, I still have your phone number from my visit last summer...mind if I call to discuss a few things? I like your ideas. Do you have any pics of what you did that you could e-mail me or post here?

I'd sure like to get my lights to look like that Foose car. I wonder how much cutting and welding they did to make it look that way.

I'm going to compare the stock tailight bezels to the Gene Smith ones. Maybe they'll fit better.

[Hotroddder]

Hotroddder, I still have your phone number from my visit last summer...mind if I call to discuss a few things? I like your ideas. Do you have any pics of what you did that you could e-mail me or post here?

I'd sure like to get my lights to look like that Foose car. I wonder how much cutting and welding they did to make it look that way.

I'm going to compare the stock tailight bezels to the Gene Smith ones. Maybe they'll fit better.

If I can help you give me a call.

Here are a couple of pics. Kinda hard to see what is going on. There are 4 #10 nuts welded into the bracing that the tail light bolts onto. Screws are either threaded from the front or the rear, depending on clearance and accessability, that provide the stopping point for the housing. I had to weld small tabs at the top and the bottom of the body lips to locate the ends of the bezel. These were ground down until the bezel was positioned correctly. Kinda hard to see them in these pics.

I got frustrated pretty fast when each time I mounted the tail light it ended up in a different place on the body and tightenint the screws in a different sequence would cause it to move. This seems to have solved that for me.http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL752/3147329/16333637/252832175.jpg
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL752/3147329/16333637/252832171.jpg

[MikeKy55]

I'd sure like to get my lights to look like that Foose car. I wonder how much cutting and welding they did to make it look that way.


A lot is done with filler. I'm sure they get close and then use filler for the final little bit. Not that it's a bad thing, but all is not metal finished.

[Chevynut]

Hotroddder, are you matching the quarter to repop tailights or originals? I found that my new tailights are WAY smaller than the originals, and it's going to take a ton of work to make them fit. Makes me think I should be looking for some NOS lights....fat chance!

I have a few sets of original lights, so I'm not sure what I should do. I'm more frustrated now than I have been at any stage of this build.

[Hotroddder]

Hotroddder, are you matching the quarter to repop tailights or originals? I found that my new tailights are WAY smaller than the originals, and it's going to take a ton of work to make them fit. Makes me think I should be looking for some NOS lights....fat chance!

I have a few sets of original lights, so I'm not sure what I should do. I'm more frustrated now than I have been at any stage of this build.

I am matching them to an original set so I can longboard across the bezels. The new Danchuk tail lights are pretty close to the originals. I am not going crazy here just want it to look nice.

Hotroddder

[56-210sedan]

Great information here everyone:cool::tu amazing what you can find in the vault when you go and play in it:D

[auggie56]

Great information here everyone:cool::tu amazing what you can find in the vault when you go and play in it:D

Ditto's. It sure gave me some valuable information. And thank you 56-210sedan, for going through the archives, and getting this re posted. :tu

[56-210sedan]

Hotrodder, do you have any current pictures of the tail light fit?

[Hotroddder]

Hotrodder, do you have any current pictures of the tail light fit?

None yet. The car is still awaiting cut and rub. Then the owner is going to take it home for assembly. I would guess that the tail lights will be later rather than sooner.

Hotroddder