Tips on sheet metal repair and/or replacement

[MikeKy55]

Guys, I thought this would be an idea. Post tips on sheet metal repair etc. This way some folks can get ideas without having to ask directly.

To start off, heres mine.

When you buy a replacement panel for rust repair (some folks don't have the equipment and talent to fab their own ;o), replace only what is needed. In other words, just because the front fender patch panel is 16 to 18 inches tall, that doesn't mean you have to use the whole panel. You only need to replace the area affected. It's much easier to keep panel straight in smaller sections. If the lower 2 to 3 inches is affected, then just cut away what is bad.

Soap box is now open, next?

[reborn55]

So if you go to replace a floor pan that is only partially rusted you only replace the rusted part. Do you still use the whole floor pan and just weld it on top of the old pan. Seems like a waste and an opening for rust return.

[MikeKy55]

If your replacing the 'rusted' metal, then there is no opening for rust. Now in the case of floors, if the entire floor is rusted replacing the entire floor would be the only way to remove the 'affected' area.

[reborn55]

What I am saying that the entire floor is not rusted--but I am going to replace the floor pan anyway. Is that overkill. Lay the floor pan over teh non rusted area or cut the whole floor pan area out.

[MikeKy55]

Ken, I wouldn't overlap panels. If you have complete pans, then I would use them. You can put the new floors in complete. I wouldn't put new over old. The space between the two will cause rust. I would replace one side at a time. Put it in at the factory seams along the rocker, toe boards and across the back. Once one side is coplete except for the center, move to the other side. Once it is in you can make your center seam. Although I always do butt welds, a 1/2" over lap along the center would be fine.

[prostreet]

Hi Guys
Mike you made some great points . On floor pans I take the new one (if available ;) ) Measure it as close as possible to get an idea of how much of the old one I will remove in my first cut. once I have knocked a good section out I lay the new one in for a trial fit. I then mark around the edge with some soap stone and then remove the new floor and cut a little more out so the new floor fits up a little closer . Two things I look for in a floor pan installation , one were is the best place I can hide a welded seam. two I cut enough out so when I burn the two edges of the old and the new together there is as little edge left to clean as possible. Now let me clear one thing first I would like you all to remember or at least keep in mind. There are many good or correct ways to skin a cat :eek: when you are doing the repairs on your own cars you do the repairs to suite yourself , and if your happy with the repair and its safe and has function great . I look at owner repairs quite often and think for what the fellow had to work with he did a great job. I do not criticise how there done or look. With that said when I do a repair I have to satisfie me first and hopefully that makes my customer happy to.
On an exterior panel install I use the same system I lay the panel over , mark it and cut long the first time . Some panels you cant get behind wich makes a repair a little more difficult but I try to butt the two panels with little to no gap as possible and start tacking,constantly checking alignment and taking time between tacks to let cool . If its possible after I grind the welds if the rear of the panel has access I grind that to so looking from the rear no one can see there was any repair . After the grinding is complete Its a good idea the hammer and dolly the HAZ area ( heat affected zone ) this will releive the are by stretching the are the weld has drawn. This will net in very little body filler and maybe just filler primer.
Sorry for the long winded post just my 3 cents worth thanks for listening. :D

[MikeKy55]

Excellent Steve, thanks for the input.

[prostreet]

Im curious How the heck do I get back in to my post to correct miss spelled words , There seems to be no edit button?? Thanks in advance

[prostreet]

Hi Guys
Mike you made some great points . On floor pans I take the new one (if available ;) ) Measure it as close as possible to get an idea of how much of the old one I will remove in my first cut. once I have knocked a good section out I lay the new one in for a trial fit. I then mark around the edge with some soap stone and then remove the new floor and cut a little more out so the new floor fits up a little closer . Two things I look for in a floor pan installation , one were is the best place I can hide a welded seam. two I cut enough out so when I burn the two edges of the old and the new together there is as little edge left to clean as possible. Now let me clear one thing first I would like you all to remember or at least keep in mind. There are many good or correct ways to skin a cat :eek: when you are doing the repairs on your own cars you do the repairs to suite yourself , and if your happy with the repair and its safe and has function great . I look at owner repairs quite often and think for what the fellow had to work with he did a great job. I do not criticise how there done or look. With that said when I do a repair I have to satisfie me first and hopefully that makes my customer happy to.
On an exterior panel install I use the same system I lay the panel over , mark it and cut long the first time . Some panels you cant get behind wich makes a repair a little more difficult but I try to butt the two panels with little to no gap as possible and start tacking,constantly checking alignment and taking time between tacks to let cool . If its possible after I grind the welds if the rear of the panel has access I grind that to so looking from the rear no one can see there was any repair . After the grinding is complete Its a good idea the hammer and dolly the HAZ area ( heat affected zone ) this will releive the area by stretching the area the weld has drawn. This will net in very little body filler and maybe just filler primer.
Sorry for the long winded post just my 3 cents worth thanks for listening. :D

[MikeKy55]

Steve, it may be disabled. :confused:

Steve, the forum is set to stop the edits after a certain time lapse.

Can I edit my own posts?
If you have registered, you will be able to edit and delete your posts. Note that the administrator can disable this ability as he desires. Your ability to edit your posts may also be time-limited, depending on how the administrator has set up the forum.

To edit or delete your posts, click the button by the post you want to edit. If your post was the first in the thread, then deleting the post may result in the removal of the entire thread.

After you have made your modifications, a note may appear, which notifies other users that you have edited your post. Administrators and moderators may also edit your messages but this note may not appear when they do so.

[trifive]

Steve and Mikeky55

I have changed the rules to allow you to edit your post without a time limit.

So hopefully this will make things easier.

THanks guys , please let me know of any thing that will improve things.

Trifive

[prostreet]

Steve and Mikeky55

I have changed the rules to allow you to edit your post without a time limit.

So hopefully this will make things easier.

THanks guys , please let me know of any thing that will improve things.

Trifive
Thanks Otis
My fingers try to type faster than my brain so that will realy help me out a lot.

[MikeKy55]

Thank ya Sir!

[prostreet]

Thank Goodness for the wonderfull Edit button.

[Bama57]

Hey Guys !!

I'm glad I found this site.

I have just purchased a 57 BelAir hardtop.

I call it a Painted Pig cause the body looks great, the panels have that "no-bondo ring" , the windows and chrome look great, a custom diamond tuck interior and a 350ci/turbo 400. I have pulled the door panels and the door interiors are only slightly rusted ... the sound deadner materials have all fell to the bottom of the door . ( I have used a scraper and sandpaper and metal prep to finish the interiors )

I say pig because this was a 70s or 80s redo and from looking at the chassis, nobody has touched the undersides since it came from the factory. I'm sure there is still 1957 grease in the front end joints. The factory undercoating plus fifty years of road grease/oil/dirt hid a lot of the structural damage.

I started scrapeing and cleaning the undercoating off last week, and the undercoating did a great job in all places except the under floor brace areas.

The underfloor braces basically weren't there. Maybe 50% left of the steel.
The inner rocker panels are pretty much shot too. New outers may have been installed in the 70s or 80s. Lots of sand like the car may have spent some time near the beaches or northern salt/sand winter driving.

I did poke a couple of holes through the floor pan around the brace areas.

My next move is to pull the seat and carpets and have a look-see from the inside to see just how extensive the rust is. I'm betting that from the frame inward everything will be fine.

I don't have the garage room to do a frame-off, and this is going to be a driver ... not a restoration. More of a hotrod for my third childhood.

My question is : has anyone ever replaced the floorbraces/pans/inner rockers while the body is on the frame and do you have any tips to make the job easier ?

For what it's worth, the car did have a 4 speed at one time ( patched hole in tunnel ) and a muncie M20 is going back in at some time during this clean-up.

I'm not a welder but I have talked to a guy at a local welding shop that is willing to moonlight on weekends and he says he can weld tin cans together.

I have seen mention of using one of the two-part epoxy truck bed liners to spray on the floorpans, and that is my plan for now. Should cover up any imperfections in the repair process. ( and seal any lap-joints ? )

Sorry for such a long post , but i thought it would save a few questions later.

[trifive]

Well Steve and Mike and several others are experts and I am sure they will give you great advice.

I had the same problem and wound up replacing my floor pans and several braces inner and outer rockers etc, you get the idea.

1. When I put my floor pans in I made the mistake of putting airtight insulation on the floors to protect them, The mistake was that if the air can't get to the floor pans moister builds up and they start to rust rapidly, good thing I checked soon after so I caught my mistake in time.

I am thinking and I am sure everyone will give you better advice, But in my opinion I would not use the truck bed coating you are talking about for the same reason is makes a airtight covering ect, I recomment putting a good coat of rustresitant primer on the pans.

I did replace everything while still on frame and it actually isn't that hard if you buy the full length floor pans and do it faster from the start.

I know you say it will only be a hotrod driver, but if you check around the 57 hardtop is a great investimate and goes up in value every day.

I know everyone would love to see some photo's

Otis:)

[reborn55]

I am doing the front floors andetc on my nomad. I started by doing the section next to the seat first--cut it out and the metal for the seat brackets. Found a bad brace so I ordered the extension brace. Welded that in and then the seat bracket followed by the outer pan. then I removed the front floor and and am in the process of welding that in. Will next weld a piece of the inner rocker in inbetween the floor braces for added strength. Good luck. Just take your time

[Bama57]

Thanks Guys.

After looking at MikeKy55's photos and http://57rustbucket.com/index.htm
I have a lot of respect for sheetmetal artists.

I'm a pretty good broadcast radio and TV transmitter engineer, but I haven't
spent a lot of time examining the way the sheetmetal all fits in a trifive.

I don't understand what the floorpans attach to and in what sequence.
My inner rockers are rusted through and so are all of the under floor braces.
I believe that the actual floorpan may be good except at the braces
( haven't pulled the carpet or seats yet )

Do the floorpans attach to the outer rockers first and then the inners are welded in later ?

Away from the underfloor braces , I can scrape the undercoating and the primer is still nice.
Any tips about removing that stubborn undercoating ?

I guess I need to pull the seats and carpets before I ask too many more questions..... LOL !!

I will need a welder whether I try to do it myself of if I hire an experienced
welder to help me.

Any suggestions as to brand / amperage ?

My shop has 220 or 110 and I have an old 225amp stick welder , so I want to
buy a good mig, but not overspend on something that might be way more
than I need for light sheetmetal repair.

I will stick with Lincoln, Miller, or other American brands.



I will take pictures later this week.

Thanks !!


Don Roden

[19_Chevelle_69]

I LOVE LINCOLNS!!!

All my welders are Lincolns.

Weldpak 100 - 115v/85a wirefeed/mig.
Weldpak 5000 - 220v/175a wirefeed/mig.
AC/DC 225 - 220v 225a/AC 125a/DC stick welder.

If you already have the stick welder, I would HIGHLY recommend the WeldPak 5000. It is strong enough for HEAVY welding, yet versatile enough to run .024" wire for light sheetmetal.

[trifive]

Be sure to get a mig welder with gas / The ones that are gasless are just a waste of money, all you will get is agrivated.

1. Go to wal mart look at their welders , take a deep breath and say boy I am glad I didn't buy one of those and then goto your local Tractor supply or other stores that have a variety and get one that is just a little better than the ones at walmart and you will be happy.

I am no welder and I have a hughe burn scar on my left leg trying to weld with one of those gas less welders I bought at wal mart. took me over a month to heal, of course the fire was my faught, but if I had a good welder from the start I wouldn.'t have had to try to reweld all the burn thru's etc, that led to my stupidity that got my coveralls on fire with no water to be found.

MY 2 cents worth.

Otis:)

[MikeKy55]

Don, I'll post some follow up info later tonight. I have to work now and don't have time to type it out. Mike

[MikeKy55]

Don, actually the order is inner rocker, braces and then floor on top. The inner rocker has a flange on the top edge that sandwiches between the braces and the floor pan itself. If you need to replace the inner rockers and braces, I would cut the outer ends off the braces about 1 inch from the inner rocker and then remove the inner rocker. By leaving all but that inch of brace in place, it will support the the body so as to keep it from sagging over the frame. Then remove the inner rocker and install the new one. There will be spot welds about every 1 to 1.5 inches along the top flange of the inner rocker at the floor. Grind over the floor along the edge lightly and you will see the spot welds. Drill thru the spot welds. The inner rocker will go up against the floor and weld to the outer rocker and floor pan. I like to drill 1/4 inch holes thru the floor about every 2 inches along the edge where the inner rocker sits and then plug weld thru those holes into the inner rocker upper flange. Once the inner is in, begin removing one brace at a time and replacing them one at a time. If you run a grinder over the floor where the brace is, up will see the spot welds to the brace. Once you have found the welds just drill thru the floor and brace. Remove the brace and fit the new one in place. Once it is in position, plug weld thru the holes you drilled to remove it. When it's all welded you won't be able to tell the braces have been replaced.
Of course if there is any floor repair needed, make those repairs before welding everything solid.
This sounds easy enough, but it will be time consuming and from time to time make you say poop.
If you have trouble, let us know and we will do our best to help.
One more thing, keep checking on the door fit as you work on it and make sure all stays level and square. Also use a weld thru primer on the inside of the panels as you replace them.

[Bama57]

Don, actually the order is inner rocker, braces and then floor on top. The inner rocker has a flange on the top edge that sandwiches between the braces and the floor pan itself.

I'm beginning to get the picture.

Does the inner rocker weld to the outer rocker at the top ,
or does the floor weld to the outer and then the inner to the floor ?

Is the outer rocker to the floor a lap or a butt joint ?


Thanks !!

[MikeKy55]

The floor has a flange that sticks up (about 1/2 inch tall) and so does the outer rocker. They meet and are welded together via spot welds.

The inner overlaps the floor, so it's a lap joint. Not a good place for a butt joint. It needs the overlap for strength in my opinion.

[Bama57]

19_Chevelle_69 said :
I LOVE LINCOLNS!!!
I would HIGHLY recommend the WeldPak 5000. ....


I haven't found a 5000 but I see several of the WELD PAK 175HDs on e-bay.
Its the lowest current 220volt unit. Both the 220V and 110V units will
be at their lowest settings ( right ? ) to do the floorpans, so is there a
big operational reason to chose between 110vac or 220 vac ?


Thanks !!!

[Tuned55]

I bought my TIG from this place. He had pretty good prices at the time.

http://www.brwelder.com/

Good luck:o

[19_Chevelle_69]

The 5000HD is the same welder as the 175HD model, it just has different accessories that come with it. The 5000HD is only found at Home Depot.

If you don't have a wirefeed/mig welder now, I would go to the 175HD right from the start.

The 115v version is an excellent welder if you never, ever want to weld more than 1/8" thick material. Floors and other sheetmetal will use the "B" or "C" setting of this welder when using .030" flux core wire. Setting "D" is reserved for 1/8" thick material.

The 220v model will use either "A" or "B" setting for sheetmetal when using .030" flux wire. The BIGGEST thing here is that BOTH welders will do the sheetmetal work that you want, but the 220v version is capable of easily welding 5/16" plate with .030" - .035" flux wire.

I own both of these welders, (I got the 115v one first) and after having run MILES of wire through each, if I had to do it again, I would buy just the 220v model, and never outgrow it. A bit more money to start, but well worth it in the end. More versatile, more capable.

A couple notes on flux core wire, since it was mentioned earlier...

Flux core wire is a great product for certain applications. Most people have trouble with it is because most flux cored wire is thicker and most (if not all) of the bargain welders (Wallymart specials) are underpowered to run this thickness of wire. Flux core is forgiving if there is a little rust or oil on your work. It can be used outside in a breeze, and still shield your puddle from impurities, where MIG (gas only) welders need calm air, and a spotless surface.

Most people complain about lots of spatter and slag on the welds when using flux core. The #1 reason for excessive spatter is NOT ENOUGH AMPERAGE. If you get lots of spattery welds, turn up the power, turn up the wire feed, and move a bit faster over your puddle. This is where the quality of the welder comes into play. If you have an economy welder, they simply do not put out enough amperage consistantly to create an even, deep penetrating puddle. If you can't turn the power up, you'll never be able to get rid of the slag and spatter.

Second most common cause of spattery welds is inferior wire. Buy a good quality wire. I have used economy .030" flux wire, and was HAPPY when I ran out. It had much more spatter then the genuine Lincoln wire I replaced it with.

[19_Chevelle_69]

And if I had the money to buy a TIG, it would definately be the Lincoln Precision TIG 185.

Lincoln 185 (http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?p=12815)
or
There is an entire website detailing the 185 here....
www.tig185.com

[MikeKy55]

Don, perhaps when you have time you could post some things important to look for when buying a MIG/TIG etc.. Duty cycles etc. Sadly most guys don't know what they are looking for until its too late.

[19_Chevelle_69]

I think that's a great idea!

Once I'm caught up, I'll make up a separate thread on a few things to look for in a welder. I'm sure Steve will be able to help me get an informative thread going, he's got a thing for welders, just like me...LOL

[CHEVY II MACHINE]

Hello, i own a 63 Chevy II with lots and lots of rott patched floor pans. I purchased new floor pans and supports to replace the seethru originals, good air conditioning if i might say. i am going to be plug welding the seams of the supports and pans. The question I have is, and by the way i am a better gas tanks cutter than welder, i love to cut things with oxy and acet torches, anyway, is it ok to use the 120v Centry using flux wire, without the gas? :)

[MikeKy55]

anyway, is it ok to use the 120v Centry using flux wire, without the gas? :)

Yes, the flux works fine. It requires a lot more clean up afterward. It leaves slag on the weld and more spatter. The flux wire is better when welding outside since the wind can't blow the shielding gas.

[prostreet]

Hi ChevyII
Splatter is about the worst you will have to contend with although if you invest in a can of spray splatter and spray just outside the welded area your clean up will be a breeze. These products can be found at your local welding shop supply stores. :D