Frame off or Frame on???

[Cuzz]

Hey guys, I need advice!!
http://www.trifive.com/coppermine/index.php?cat=10175
If you go to my album you will see the condition of the floor pan and rocker panels (inner and outer). I have two questions! 1) After looking at the pictures which would be better, Frame off or Frame on ( or does it matter)? and 2) I know there isn't a hard and fast set price, but can anyone give me a swdg (scientific wild donkey guess ) on how much something of this magnitude would cost to have done. Remember, I have no experience at restoring a classic, this is my first one, and I have no contacts to rely on. . Any advice on this would be highly-highly appreciated

[rj57]

Can I offer some first hand advice?

I tore my very first in to pieces in may, 1987 planning a body off the frame restoration. I planned on working on the car every day after work and weekends. Plans were to have the car done in one year's time. I knew it was possible from talking with other's who'd done the same with their cars.

Well I got fired from my 8.5 year job and could not steady employment for years. Fast forward to today my car is still in pieces.

If I had it to do over again I'd do the car as a rolling restoration. That way I could still enjoy my car.

I have done a rolling restoration on another '57 I own. And I could still drive car.

AS for doing the work on your car, contact Gene at Star City Classic Parts. He's a great guy to work with. You do know you can buy floor pans in sections or 1/2s, or a full floor pan. This gives you the option of replacing only what's needed.

Doing work like floor pans isn't hard. A little time consuming but not bad and it'll give you experience doing other sheet metal replacement.

[Cuzz]

Thanks for the reply rj. Sorry for your unfortunate cercumstances . I too plan on making this a rolling restore, but can't really do that until the floor and rockers are done. I guess I'm just trying to find out ( for longevity sake) which is better Frame off or Frame on? I don't want to sound like a wimp, but I've heard too many horror stories about the floor pans and rocker panels to even try and do this myself, so I'm gonna have someone here in the St Cloud area do that (with a lot of help from me I hope). And I wouldn't remove the body from the frame until that work was done. I do have the ability to have a rotissere made and could use it once I figure out the best course of action.

[55fazzi]

Cuzz,
Is your question..............should you leave the body on the frame while a new floor pan is fabbed in or panels repaired? I'm not a body man but....everything I've ever read or heard says you should leave the body on the frame while making repairs. The metal will shrink and move during the cooling process. You wont know it until you go to put the body back on the frame or re-install the trunk lid and nothing aligns anymore. It is very common to add additional structural braces for this purpose during panel replacement or repair. Contact Steve (Prostreet) or Laszlo (Chevynut) for their opinion. They are pro's at this.

Tom

[Cuzz]

Thanks Tom, I was pretty much sure that it was gonna stay on the frame until after the floor and rockers were done. I was unsure of whether to take it off the frame after that work was done. I've looked at the frame through the holes in the pan and it (the frame) looks good (to an untrained eye). I kinda concerned about the frame because of the shape the pan is in. I don't want to restore this and then find out 5-10 years from now that I need to repair the frame. So I guess the question is-Is it worth it to remove the body? Or leave it on the frame, use a rotissere (sp?), and just sandblast the car as a whole? It might come down to personal preference but I'd still like to hear what you guys think. Any experts-you can chime in at any time- I'll be listening!!
Steve

[MikeKy55]

When you come to the point where your ready to do the frame, take it off. You will not get a through job with it sitting on the frame. If you invest the amount of money to do the floors, don't stop there. Even if you just lift it high enough (say 3 feet)to blast and paint the frame and underside of the body.

[55fazzi]

BLOW IT APART!!!!!!
Do the body off. I have always regretted not doing the body-off when I was at that point with my '55. And I was right there! Details make the difference!

Tom

[chevman57]

Steve in the immoortal words of a wise man (mikeky55) it is pretty much up to what you want and what you intend to do with the car. If it is going to be a driver the frame off may be a bit intense. More of a driver/cruiser/show car then go for it. In my case i decided the frame off was the only way to achieve the quality of the rebuild that i wanted. If you decide to go this route we`ll be glad to be of all the help we can.
Terry

[Bad55]

Guys while we are this subject is it necessary to keep the body on the chassis while doing floorpans (I do understand the flex issues) however I have an experienced guy helping with my frame off and he says it is safe to brace the car (inside the door jams and quater panel to quater panel) then remove it from the chassis. We are planning on doing half floors and all of the braces are shot as well. Any input? Thanks

[MP&C]

Properly braced, it would be safe, however it will also remove the body mount holes in those locations from the perfect alignment jig, the frame you'll be bolting it to. Sitting on the frame allows you to align these as you go and keep the other unaffected areas bolted down to prevent body flex/movement, epsecially if you will need to work on rockers. Normally if you are working on floors and braces, the rust has extended into the rockers as well. Spend a couple hours going through John Grimmy's 57 Rustbucket site for some nice pictorials and insight. Here's a how-to that I wrote up on rocker/floor replacement, that may help as well. Then look at what you have and decide your best course of action.

Rocker panel replacement.

Before starting, I would recommend leaving the body on the frame for rocker panel replacement. The rocker is a structural member integral to the door opening, and the frame will help to keep the body from flexing, or the door opening from widening or otherwise changing shape, while replacing the rockers. While you may be removing some of the body mount bolts during this operation, leave all other body mount bolts intact to keep the body from shifting as you remove parts, especially in front of and behind the area you are working. (i.e.: front body mount forward of firewall, rear body mounts farther behind rear floor pans) Additionally, leaving the car on the frame will give you exact alignment locations for the floor cross members that will need to bolt up to the frame.
Example:



Be sure to take future rust preventative measures by cleaning and painting any parts that will be inaccessible after installation using a good epoxy primer or weld through primer.

Disclaimer: ***Please observe safety precautions when using power tools, wear gloves while handling sharp metal.*** Although there are many ways to skin a cat, the methods described herein are an attempt to provide panel replacement with as little body flex/movement as possible. Adapt as necessary to fit your needs.

Removing the rockers

The rocker panel is spot welded in place, along the bottom to the adjoining inner rocker, along the top to the inner pinch weld adjacent to the floor pan, at the rear to the leading lower edge of the quarter panel and the lower portion of the B post, at the front to the lower portion of the A post, as well as to the "joiner plate" that connects the inner and outer rockers structurally to the A post. The front of the rocker is filled in by an end cap; you may find it easier to weld this item onto the new rocker prior to installing the new rocker on the car. I took a measurement across the door opening prior to removal to insure there was no change in the door opening between removing the old rocker and welding the new one in place. Pick a nice straight location toward the bottom of the A and B posts, mark the measurement locations with a sharpie (to insure measuring form same location), write down the measurement, and then you can verify this measurement remains before tacking the new rocker in place. *** Lastly, using a straight edge, align against the front edge of the rocker and make a mark on the A post so you will have a good alignment reference for the front of the new rocker. (see red arrow)***




Now for the cutting, a pneumatic die grinder with a 3" cutoff wheel does wonders. I would suggest to cut around the perimeter of the lower A and B posts, you can stay away from them 1/4" or so, cut up to the pinch weld against the floor pan but leave the welded flange, cut up to the flange on the bottom (against the inner rocker) but again, leave the flange, cut up to the front edge but leave the front flanges folded around the end cap. For the seam with the lower edge of the quarter panel, you may need to use a torch to melt away the lead from the seam (if it's still original) or other methods if body filler. After removing the filler, again, cut up to the joint. The object here is to get the bulk of the outer rocker out of your way, where you can go back and attack the flat remaining flanges on a more individual basis, which will limit the prodding, prying, hammer beatings, and thus A and B post movements. You should be able to see most of the dimples where the rocker was spot welded. There are many methods to remove the spot welds. You can use a weld cutter, drill bit, or even use the same cut off wheel perpendicular to the metal in a back and forth movement (about same width as the spot weld area) to set it free. This method would only be used on a panel being replaced. To help you out in how far to grind, I use the blue metal method. Once the metal starts turning blue at the bottom area you are grinding, this is an indicator the top layer is getting thin and warm. When you start to see a shiny spot inside a blue circle, you are now in the second layer, and the spot weld should be free. To find a starting point, use the cut off wheel to separate your remaining flange between two spot welds. Now you can grind or drill out the welds, whatever method works best, and "roll up" the flange as you go, it will help to identify the next spot welds where they are not easily seen. When you get to the lower potions of the A and B post, you should be able to see the slight indentations from the spot weld process. As you will need to weld these back to the new rocker, drilling out the old spot welds would leave a nice hole for plug welds to the new rocker. Continue removing piece by piece until the old rocker is completely removed. If you are replacing the inner rocker as well, you need not remove the lower flange left from the outer rocker. Now you should be able to inspect the inner rocker. You may find some areas around the floor braces that are shown rusted through that earlier appeared intact from the outside inspection.









Removing the inner rocker: The bottom of the inner rocker is spot welded to the adjacent outer rocker and to the lower flange of the rear quarter. The top is spot welded to the bottom side of the floor pan, in the "gutter" area. The front is spot welded to the joiner plate and also to the flanges joining the floor pan and toe pan, the rear is welded to the front of the inner wheel well. It will be easier to remove the inner rocker with the outer removed, but try to keep the floor pinch weld flange intact to serve as an installation guide for the outer rocker. In much the same fashion as the removal of the outer, try to cut away as much of the inner rocker as possible, cutting around the body mount flanges, and cutting up to the floor pan but leaving the top flange intact for removal later. After removal of the bulk, you can go back and carefully remove the leftovers. Drill out the spot welds in the gutter area of the floor pan to release the inner rocker flange. Using your cutoff wheel as a grinder, remove the spot welds that hold the remainder of the inner rocker to the outer flanges of the floor cross members. Use extreme care here if you plan on reusing the cross members. If you are replacing the floor cross members, you can leave the inner rocker section intact on the ends if they do not interfere with the new outer rocker going on. Some of the removal behind the rear quarter may need to be done on a creeper, if you can see the spot welds from the front side, you can use the drill method of removal to release the leftover inner rocker. These will serve as a good hole for plug welds if you plan on reusing the quarter.

Inspect the joiner plate, most will have rust at floor level. If repair is required, you may be able to just weld on a new section on the bottom by fabricating a patch out of some 14 gauge sheet metal. If it looks too far gone, go ahead and replace it entirely. The front area of the outer rocker that is adjacent to the joiner plate will have a visible step or offset to accommodate the joiner plate. If doing any repairs to the joiner plate, you may want to do them after floor removal and this will allow for welding from above (easier).

Fit the new rocker in place after insuring all burrs and leftover fragments are gone. You will quickly see by leaving the floor pinch weld intact, it gives you a good clamping point to hold the rocker in place. Align the front edge of the rocker with the mark you made on the A post, and clamp in place. If everything looks like a good fit, using some of the holes in the lower A post, weld them full to form a plug weld. Now check you dimension across the A and B posts and verify it has not changed, and then weld the rear section of the rocker by welding some of the holes in the lower B post. Now remove the floor pan by using our same "bulk method" to cut up to the outer flanges and around the other obstacles. You need not cut out the entire floor pan unless it is needed, you can get by with just doing a 12" wide of the outer edge, and butt weld into place. Depends largely on the condition of your existing floor and how much you wish to replace. I think you'll likely find that once you start removing metal, the piece next to it you thought was good, is not so solid after all, and will require replacement as well. (Get ready for the domino effect) Once the floor is out of the way, and all the flanges have been removed, remove the end sections of the long cross members, the short ones will normally come out with the floor. Get a measurement off the new repair end to make sure you don?t cut too much off; there should be an overlap area. Make sure your joiner plate is good and solid, or repair/replace/fabricate new as necessary.





Note that the joiner plate has a crease just below what would be the top edge of the rocker panel, to match its contour. Here it is test fitted:




Note the drill holes in the A post where the spot welds were drilled out. The front edge of the joiner plate had a weld bead attaching it to the triangular shaped piece of metal below the kick panel vent. I used plug welds in installing the replacement. The upper and lower edges are spot welded to the adjacent areas of the outer rocker; if you have a spot welder, fine, if not just use plug welds. after this is installed, the inner rocker would go on. You can see in these pictures, it does make it easier with the floor removed to perform the majority of these weld functions from the top. If you are using plug welds to join the lower flanges of the two rockers (at about 2" or so apart) it will have a tendency (due to the heat from welding) for the bottom edge to shrink and your inner rocker to arc downward at the far end, especially if you start form one end and work to the other. I would suggest drilling all your plug weld holes at the bottom of the inner rocker, but welding one end, then the other, then the center, then skip around and fill in the rest. This should help to minimize this warping. With the inner rocker in place, now install the floor cross members/ repair ends, etc. insuring to align the body mount holes of the new cross members to their appropriate body mount using a bolt or alignment pin:




You can also see in this view where the cross member is plug welded to the inner rocker. Next step would be to install the cross members. Align them to their applicable body mounts or alignment holes, clamp and plug weld to the inner rocker. Next would be to predrill the plug weld holes for your floor pan. We did this by laying the floor pan in place, clamp against outer rocker, and mark an outline of the cross members and inner rocker from underneath. Remove the floor, measure the width of the cross member flanges, and bring the holes in from your outline half that distance, and drill your plug weld holes:





The holes on the bottom edge of this last picture are for plug welding to the top flange of the inner rocker. The top of inner rocker does have some holes and indentations, so be sure your plug weld holes don't fall in those cracks.

Install the floor pan by aligning to the pinch weld flange of the outer rocker and flanges of the toe panel, clamp in place and start welding.



When joing the two halves together, I chose to butt weld so that a lapped joint wouldn't serve as a moisture trap for future rust issues.




Plus, once the welds are finished smooth, the floor will appear as the one piece original from the bottom.