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Classic Industries 500 PS misbehaving?

8K views 40 replies 14 participants last post by  Had a few Tri 5's 
#1 ·
I talked with the tech support dept at Classic Industries about this and they had no ideas at all. In 2016 I removed the manual steering and installed a C-I 500 PS kit #TF500092, IDidit steering column #TF10038C, and other necessary parts to convert if from manual to PS. Until recently it worked perfectly. Recently, though, it has been acting up in a manner which deeply concerns me. To wit; when I first start it up and pull out of the garage it gets 'sticky' and becomes almost impossible to turn the steering wheel. Then it will release and turn just a little bit before 'sticking' again. If I work the steering wheel back and forth the 'stickiness' works itself out and goes away. The problem does Not return as the car is driven more during the day or parked and restarted... it's only when first run in the morning. The fluid level is good, there's no squealing from the pump or any other odd noises, the belt is tight, and there are no leaks.

As I told the tech support guy, if the pump were going bad I'd expect it to act up throughout the period that it was being driven and not just when it was cold. But then I'm far from being a PS expert, too.

Any suggestions? Anyone? I haven't yet taken it to a garage, as I'd prefer to take care of it myself if possible.
 
#6 ·
did you buy it from summit racing?? if so give them a call about another unit, they are real good about customer support. CPP is terrible about customer support
 
#7 ·
Got it from Classic Industries. Hasn't done it recently, so I'm hopeful that it's somehow related to the cold weather that we were having. If that's the case, I'm not going to worry much about it since it goes away in a few moments and I don't drive it in the winter.
 
#10 ·
If you want to heat up the fluid real fast, just turn the steering wheel as far as it will go left or right and hold it there. Only do this for seconds as the temperature rises REALLY QUICKLY! That won't tell you the cause but it will confirm the cold/hot symptoms.

Whether it's the vanes or the flow control valve, the problem is almost certainly in the pump and not the steering box.
 
#11 ·
I forget what the car was but my friends wife's car when under warranty some 30-35 years ago had the same problem. The common name for it was called "morning sickness". I'll try and give him a call later and see if he remembers what the car was and what the problem was.
 
#12 ·
Classic Industries PS puzzle

Just got off the phone with tech support at Classic Industries. They told me they got their kits from CPP and gave me the ph # for CPP tech support and the CPP p/n (CPP5557PSK) . Described the issue to CPP's tech support and they said "it's because of the cold". Well, DUH, isn't that what I just said?! I needed to know Why this one PS system misbehaves when others, at the same temperature, do not, and what I can do about it. This is not normal behavior! After that, all they could say was "I dunno" about their own product. (sigh) It's enough to tempt me to rip the new 500 box out and put in rack & pinion PS, but I'd have no guarantee that the new system wouldn't do the same thing.

If the PS pump or fluid were bad, wouldn't it misbehave at other times too and not just when it's first pulled out of the unheated garage?

I've had 2 shops look at it, but they couldn't get it to misbehave. It worked perfectly for them. I'm thinking that they probably kept it indoors overnight and they heated their indoor spaces. :confused0062:
 
#13 ·
If the PS pump or fluid were bad, wouldn't it misbehave at other times too and not just when it's first pulled out of the unheated garage?
Not necessarily, at least in my opinion. I think your problem is in the pump.

Have you tried holding the steering at full lock for a short time when the system is cold as I suggested to see if the problem goes away or diminishes? Have you tried running the engine at a slightly higher rpm when this happens?
 
#14 ·
CPP, and their "issues" is exactly why I cancelled my 500 box order, and ordered the 600. They appear to have some issues too, but I don't want to put up w/ the bs....
 
#17 ·
I had a similar problem. I have the smaller type II saginaw pump. I got a little bigger flow control fitting and it solved the problem. Apparently my pump was just a little light on the flow. Even when it warmed up, if I turned the wheel quick, it was stiff. Slowly, it was ok. When it was cold, it was always stiff.

Similar to what I got>>>>> https://www.summitracing.com/parts/krs-krc25300912/overview/
 
#18 ·
Had a few Tri 5's, that's good input.

It goes along the same thought lines as increasing the engine rpm to increase pump flow, but when you're at max flow for the valve you have - the valve must be changed.

I was aware there were valves with different flow settings, but not a direct way to evaluate and compare them like this product has.
 
#19 ·
That begs the question; How do I know what the current flow rate is and would simply replacing the valve increase the flow? How would I know what size valve would be appropriate for increasing the flow? Is this something that should be done by a shop or can it be done in the garage? Are different sized valves even a user replaceable item?
 
#20 ·
The valve is in the outlet of your power steering pump. It's actually what the high pressure hose screws into. It's not too hard to change it, how hard depends on whether you can get it out without pulling the pump off the engine.

I would hope the kit has some kind of info in it to help you pick a starting spot, or how to identify the flow rate of the one you already have. Maybe had a few Tri 5's can comment.
 
#21 ·
Is that the brass fitting in the pressure side? When I first put the newly purchased pump in and fired up the engine, the output side wouldn't stop leaking. Traced it to a poorly machined brass fitting in the outlet side which CPP admitted they'd had problems with (and they were still selling them). Bought a new fitting and put it in place and it stopped leaking. If that's the 'valve', then there's no problem with getting it out. How do I determine what 'size' is in it and what 'size' a replacement might be? Are they labeled or do they have to be measured for inside diameter? I still have the one that I took out and I see nothing on it that might indicate a size or flow rate.
 

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#29 ·
I don't know what "Summit link" you're referring to.

The brass fitting the I attached the pic of was mis-machined and would not seal, and CPP admitted they sold them knowing that. The pic was post-removal from the 500 box and the nicks are from the removal process.
 
#23 ·
I ordered that kit and went one size up from what I had. My pump is a KRC pump so it was easy to determine the size. When looking at stock type flow fittings, I found the center hole is different sizes.

We did another one for a friend and just drilled out the center hole a little at a time. Problem is, if you go too big your stuck. I used a sized drill that I marked in my box of bits. I can tell you what size worked for him......his was a Type II pump, so I am not sure what you have there.
 
#25 ·
I think the problem is there are a bunch of different pumps out there with different flow rates. I guess for different applications, rack vs box vs what kind of box, vehicle weight and so on. Many aftermarket pumps are put together with old (remanufactured) stuff so you might end up with something that has a flow outside of what is required for your box. You buy one to put on your car and it might be right, or not.

This was the case with my friends pump. We took a valve out of one I was using and was working properly. We found the center hole on the one that worked right was larger sooooo...we drilled the pother to match. Seemed to work fine. Since then I came across the supply of different valves to purchase. I found going smaller made for a more solid feel, bigger became easier. With easier, you lost some road feel, more solid felt good, but it was a fine line between solid and too stiff in a quick turn.

On the Type II pumps it is just a mater of removing the pressure line and then removing the fitting/valve. I assume it is similar on the other style just perhaps harder to get to since they are on the back.
 
#26 ·
You guys are making me wonder if my stock power with a 1978 pump could benefit from a bigger hole? At idle it's a little hard to steer, pretty much feels like if I turn slower it goes OK but trying to turn too fast it doesn't like. That won't change the pressure right? I don't think I want to increase pressure since my control valve already leaks.

Or since it's just at idle, would it need a smaller pulley? I don't want to overdrive it either if that could be a problem. Or does the pressure valve/bypass inside it take care of that?
 
#27 ·
The valve has a pressure relief in it as well as the flow control. When you take the steering all the way to the stop the pressure relief opens and all the fluid bypasses back to the pump inlet internally.

The pulley size and the flow control work together to give the actual flow. Changing the pulley might require a different flow control valve. You probably won't find but two different pulleys (maybe only one) for each pump design.
 
#28 · (Edited)
The size we settled on for the one we drilled bigger was .149, or a #25 drill bit. It seemed to work with that particular one. It was a Type II pump with a 500 box.

If you try to increase pressure, it will only go a certain distance before the bypass takes over and does its job. Remember, like Rick said, bypassing mode (at each lock) creates heat which is not a good thing.

The flow control valve will not increase pressures, only the amount of flow available at the pressure pumped. Too small of a valve restricts the flow available at that pressure to make the box work. That is why when turning the wheel slower is easier (less flow) and turning it faster (requires more flow to keep up) would make it harder if the valve was too small.

Much like cold fluid. thicker = less flow. It warms up, it flows easier. A problem could also be solved with different fluids if it is a temp related issue. Many synthetics are not as susceptible to cold thickening. I use a GM fluid #12345867 or 10-5044. It stays more fluid even when cold. It is a partial synthetic.
 
#32 ·
They make them for the older style pumps too, but from what I saw they only have 2 choices. 2.1 GPM and 3.1 GPM. I don't know what the OP has for a pump. If he has an older style, maybe someone put an 2.1 gpm valve in it at some point. If he does have the older one, a junkyard would be the place to find a 3.1 GPM valve. Just look for a non rack n pinion vehicle and get one out of the back of the pump.

Here is the 2.1 gpm valve>>> https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Perform...MIxZDsqIDw5QIVQx-tBh39SQ0eEAQYASABEgIp6vD_BwE
 
#34 · (Edited)
If you had time, I would go grab a few valves off some things in the bone yard and just drill them out different sizes. Figure out what you have now and go a little bigger a couple of times. Stick them in and try it. If you go to a place that deals with horses and horse stuff, you can get a large syringe, hook a little piece of clear rubber tube on it. Use it to suck out the fluid, change the valve, then put that fluid right back in.

If you go to a smaller pulley, it will spin the pump faster maybe making more pressure, but that might not really increase the flow rating. At some point, you can only push so much through a certain sized hole. If you try to exceed that, the pressure bypass does its thing and just creates heat.

Most likely your pump is already making enough pressure if it isn't worn out. It might just not have enough flow. That valve is a lot easier to remove that those pulleys.
 
#35 ·
Replaced the PS pump with a new (not rebuilt) pump this past spring and the problem appeared to go away. Now that the weather is turning colder again, the problem has returned. I took the car to a reliable garage and had them look at it and they said that the issue is in the steering box. This morning I fired it up in the garage and verified that the binding was still present, then jacked the front wheels off the ground and checked ... no more binding. The garage says that it's because there's no pressure on the box. It may or may not be related, but there is absolutely zero self-centering. The steering and suspension is all OEM with new tie rods, new ball joints, and new bearings (front PDB conversion).but original control arms and pitman arm. The PS fluid is clear with a pinkish tint to it and there are no leaks. The box manufacturer tech points to the suspension, the suspension experts point to the box. I really Really do not want to go throwing new parts at the wall until something sticks.but there's no way that this is normal behavior. Any ideas short of totally ripping out the entire suspension and steering system and throwing all new parts at it?!? I'm tearing my hair out over this...and I don't have all that much left.
 
#36 ·
Perhaps I should add that this only happens when turning the wheels to the right, never when turning to the left. They'll turn a little, then bind. When I really bear down, it'll turn a little more and then bind again. After being worked back and forth a few times like that it smooths out and works just fine the rest of the day.
 
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