How much primer to paint a 55

824 Views 50 Replies 11 Participants Last post by Old Buzzard, 12 d ago

tibalda

Discussion Starter · 14 d ago

I am getting ready to order primer and I am trying to determine how much I need. After getting an education on this site about using epoxy base and then a urethane primer on top to facilitate sanding later on since I plan to paint my car one part at a time over a long time period. My car is a 55 2DR HT two tone. I will be using single stage paint and keeping the colors which is India Ivory and Dusk Rose (white on top).

One question is how much of each primer is needed and a second is what color primer should I get. I assume white for the India Ivory - but what for the Dusk Rose? Is it typical to apply two tone primer for two tone cars?

Thanks for any help you can offer.
Art

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Robert Haas

· #2 · 14 d ago

Primer ain't sealer and vice versa.

Buy a gallon of high build and get it to the point that you are ready to wet sand and seal. I have no idea how much body work you are going to do or how good you are at it, but most novices end up sanding off more primer then they leave on the car.

Reactions: 1

Shadetree55

· #3 · 14 d ago

tibalda said:
I am getting ready to order primer and I am trying to determine how much I need. After getting an education on this site about using epoxy base and then a urethane primer on top to facilitate sanding later on since I plan to paint my car one part at a time over a long time period. My car is a 55 2DR HT two tone. I will be using single stage paint and keeping the colors which is India Ivory and Dusk Rose (white on top).

One question is how much of each primer is needed and a second is what color primer should I get. I assume white for the India Ivory - but what for the Dusk Rose? Is it typical to apply two tone primer for two tone cars?

Thanks for any help you can offer.
Art

I used single stage paint and urethane primer only. 2 gallons of gray and had half gallon left.

Reactions: 1

Had a few Tri 5's

· #4 · 14 d ago

I usually go with a gallon of epoxy to spray the base over bare metal, then about 2 gallons of a high build like JP202 PPG. I use maybe 1 1/2 of that, maybe a little more. It depends on how serious you are about block sanding and getting things straight. Filler primer is just that. You spray a coupe of heavy coats, spray some guide coat and get to blocking. If you are not sanding some back off, you're not doing it right. You might think you have everything smooth as a baby's butt, then be surprised when you start blocking the guide coat off.

I would just go with all gray. If you spray your basecoat right, it will cover. If your primer is determining your final color, you are not getting coverage with the base. Some specialty paints suggest certain colors of primer....not sure if it is a necessity unless for some candies and things like that which are more translucent.

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55wagoncrazy

· #5 · 14 d ago

This is an almost impossible question to answer. In 43 years of doing this no 2 cars required the same amount. Now take my 55 convertible
after the basic work was all done, each panel was blocked 7 times using urethane high build. Each final coat of the application of about 5 coats
was tinted with a different color so that when blocking was done the lows would be shown. Many years ago guys would come into my shop and see
cars with various different colors of primer and wonder if I was a mad man (I am 100% true) I would pull out a book on each car and I could tell
by what color the primer guide coat was based on that book, how many times each panel had been blocked. Some panels took less "blocking"
some more. The process will tell you what is needed.
Many of the paint companies will now tell you what shade of primer to use under their color coats to get the right color they have mixed. To light
will change the color, to dark will also do that.
Some times I like to tint my primer so if I know I will not need a lot of sanding=blocking. Then the top coat will cover faster with less paint. This mimics
a system that Sikkens Paint developed years ago. It was a system to reduce VOC's. They had a primer matching system where some of the colors
were used as the REAL color and then clear was used over them.

Tinted urethane primer over epoxy:

Minimal sanding and single stage paint:

Buy a gallon and all that is needed to spray it and get more as you need it. Let the project and work level you want tell you YOUR answer

Mikey

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2

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Rick_L

· #6 · 14 d ago

Robert Haas said:
Primer ain't sealer and vice versa.

Not necessarily. Some primers can be mixed as sealer, follow the directions on the p-sheet.

Beyond that, what Mikey said. Buy what you know you need now. Buy more if and when you run out and need more, as this will vary.

tibalda

Discussion Starter · #7 · 13 d ago

Shadetree55 said:
I used single stage paint and urethane primer only. 2 gallons of gray and had half gallon left.

So you didn't do an epoxy base? I have seen a lot of posts covering the benefits of epoxy. I guess if the difference of using epoxy vs not is the difference between a 15 year paint job and a 25 year paint job I doubt it would matter to me ☻️.

Thanks for your response.
Art

Rick_L

· #8 · 13 d ago

tibalda said:
the difference between a 15 year paint job and a 25 year paint job

I'd call it 2-5 years vs. 15-25 years.

Shadetree55

· #9 · 13 d ago

tibalda said:
So you didn't do an epoxy base? I have seen a lot of posts covering the benefits of epoxy. I guess if the difference of using epoxy vs not is the difference between a 15 year paint job and a 25 year paint job I doubt it would matter to me ☻️.

Thanks for your response.
Art

I’m just too old school I guess. Painting single stage acrylic enamel with gloss hardener using epoxy never crossed my mind.

tibalda

Discussion Starter · #10 · 13 d ago

Robert Haas said:
Primer ain't sealer and vice versa.

Buy a gallon of high build and get it to the point that you are ready to wet sand and seal. I have no idea how much body work you are going to do or how good you are at it, but most novices end up sanding off more primer then they leave on the car.

Sorry if I am being thick on this point. From what I gathered in my readings on the subject of priming my understanding is the best way to go is epoxy first - especially on fresh metal. Because I will be priming individual parts at a time it was suggested to add urethane primer on top of the epoxy because of my timing and that due to the length of time I will need to sand before sealer and it is easier to sand urethane than epoxy. I understand sealer is separate and that some primers can be reduced to act as sealer. I appreciate the amount of primer will depend how good or bad I am with the bodywork but I should have asked for a base coat.

As for high build primer is that more of a requirement if I end up with sanding scratches I left behind?

I am still curious what others do regarding the primer color especially when doing a two tone paint job.

Thanks for your help.
Art

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tibalda

Discussion Starter · #11 · 13 d ago

Rick_L said:
I'd call it 2-5 years vs. 15-25 years.

Ok that makes a big difference as I hope to live at least that long

Had a few Tri 5's said:
I usually go with a gallon of epoxy to spray the base over bare metal, then about 2 gallons of a high build like JP202 PPG. I use maybe 1 1/2 of that, maybe a little more. It depends on how serious you are about block sanding and getting things straight. Filler primer is just that. You spray a coupe of heavy coats, spray some guide coat and get to blocking. If you are not sanding some back off, you're not doing it right. You might think you have everything smooth as a baby's butt, then be surprised when you start blocking the guide coat off.

I would just go with all gray. If you spray your basecoat right, it will cover. If your primer is determining your final color, you are not getting coverage with the base. Some specialty paints suggest certain colors of primer....not sure if it is a necessity unless for some candies and things like that which are more translucent.

Thanks for the info. I am a long way from that point and I am both anxious and terrified. That will be a real test of how well I did on my metal work. I plan to get to a point where I think I have finished blocking the stop for a while and then come back and do it again. I know every imperfection will haunt me.

I appreciate your help.
Art

Reactions: 2

ETriggs

· #12 · 13 d ago

I understand the irritation of imperfections but also remember that sometimes the enemy of good is better. I was exactly like you when I started and wanted it to be perfect but I slowly understood that it was starting to overwhelm me. Then I went the other direction and started getting impatient and threw stuff together. There has to be a happy medium if you want a drivable car that looks good. Do it right, but understand that nothing is perfect. When you’re behind the wheel cruising down the road, many of those flaws will fade away.

Reactions: 1

Rick_L

· #13 · 13 d ago

Shadetree55 said:
Painting single stage acrylic enamel with gloss hardener using epoxy never crossed my mind.

I wouldn't either. That's a 2-5 year, 20' paint job all the way.

Reactions: 1

ETriggs

· #14 · 13 d ago

Rick_L said:
I wouldn't either. That's a 2-5 year, 20' paint job all the way.

That’s what antique tractors get painted with, not a good car.

Reactions: 1

tibalda

Discussion Starter · #15 · 13 d ago

55wagoncrazy said:
This is an almost impossible question to answer. In 43 years of doing this no 2 cars required the same amount. Now take my 55 convertible
after the basic work was all done, each panel was blocked 7 times using urethane high build. Each final coat of the application of about 5 coats
was tinted with a different color so that when blocking was done the lows would be shown. Many years ago guys would come into my shop and see
cars with various different colors of primer and wonder if I was a mad man (I am 100% true) I would pull out a book on each car and I could tell
by what color the primer guide coat was based on that book, how many times each panel had been blocked. Some panels took less "blocking"
some more. The process will tell you what is needed.
Many of the paint companies will now tell you what shade of primer to use under their color coats to get the right color they have mixed. To light
will change the color, to dark will also do that.
Some times I like to tint my primer so if I know I will not need a lot of sanding=blocking. Then the top coat will cover faster with less paint. This mimics
a system that Sikkens Paint developed years ago. It was a system to reduce VOC's. They had a primer matching system where some of the colors
were used as the REAL color and then clear was used over them.

Tinted urethane primer over epoxy: View attachment 397880

Minimal sanding and single stage paint:

View attachment 397881

Buy a gallon and all that is needed to spray it and get more as you need it. Let the project and work level you want tell you YOUR answer

Mikey

I think your tinted primer with a coat of clear will look better than my paint job when I am done. I didn't realize you can tint primer to the point of almost matching the top color. I like your technique of using tinted primer for blocking. I always had a question on guide coats and how to clean them up in low spots before filling or re-priming. Tinted primer for blocking would solve that problem.

If I can go on a tangent about blocking - if I do a base coat of epoxy, then high build urethane, then apply a skim coat of filler and start to sand the filler. Am I blocking the filler - or I need to spray the high build urethane and then block? I have seen some video demonstrations where a guide coat was applied to filler, then sanded and additional filler added to the low spots, then another layer of guide coat and repeat. I can see that spraying a coat of urethane primer before blocking takes care of the issue if sanding cuts down to the bare metal. But if that is the case - should the bare metal be coated with epoxy and then urethane?

I have started to use Tamco epoxy primer. Eldon (ETriggs) suggested Orion urethane primer over it. The company site talks about it being the thickest DTM primer - but is that considered "high build"?

Thanks for the help.
Art

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55wagoncrazy

· #16 · 13 d ago

Epoxy is the easiest way to protect the bare metal. You can paint over it if you want. High build urethane is applied to act as a uniform filler
that can be sanded, re-coated and sanded again. I stay away from skim coats of glaze or body filler if I can. I like to do my body filler work
over the urethane primer. Thinning out urethane high build can give a smooth finish coat and will act like a sealer. Fine sanding of this can
be done.
I buy my epoxy and high build in gallon containers. I have stainless steel household measuring cups I use to mix the amounts of each I want.
This reduces the waste. You can always mix more, but after either is mixed it is either use it or waste, because most cannot be stored for more
than a day with epoxy and only a few hours with urethanes.

Mikey

Reactions: 1

tibalda

Discussion Starter · #17 · 13 d ago

ETriggs said:
I understand the irritation of imperfections but also remember that sometimes the enemy of good is better. I was exactly like you when I started and wanted it to be perfect but I slowly understood that it was starting to overwhelm me. Then I went the other direction and started getting impatient and threw stuff together. There has to be a happy medium if you want a drivable car that looks good. Do it right, but understand that nothing is perfect. When you’re behind the wheel cruising down the road, many of those flaws will fade away.

I do appreciate your point. I like to look at it as to strive for perfection, but settle for something less. I know patience is really important. I have posted my dilemma of changing a lower door skin and messing it up a bit when folding the outer edge. I took a day off and then came back and "blocked" the bare metal to see how good or bad it was and I think it looks good so I am a bit relieved. Walking away for a day really helped.

Thanks.
Art

Reactions: 1

tibalda

Discussion Starter · #18 · 13 d ago

55wagoncrazy said:
Epoxy is the easiest way to protect the bare metal. You can paint over it if you want. High build urethane is applied to act as a uniform filler
that can be sanded, re-coated and sanded again. I stay away from skim coats of glaze or body filler if I can. I like to do my body filler work
over the urethane primer. Thinning out urethane high build can give a smooth finish coat and will act like a sealer. Fine sanding of this can
be done.
I buy my epoxy and high build in gallon containers. I have stainless steel household measuring cups I use to mix the amounts of each I want.
This reduces the waste. You can always mix more, but after either is mixed it is either use it or waste, because most cannot be stored for more
than a day with epoxy and only a few hours with urethanes.

Mikey

Sorry for the million questions - but I always seem to catch something you stated that I feel is really important. When you say to stay away from skim coats of body filler or glaze - I was thinking I would be adding a skim coat of body filler to the entire car over the urethane primer for the purpose of blocking and trying to have no more than 1/8" of thickness. I was thinking the high build urethane was to fill the sanding scratches in the filler or grinding marks in metal. Do I have that wrong?
Art

Robert Haas

· #19 · 13 d ago

I use DTM (Direct to metal) primers so using epoxy is no longer in my process. Colored primers have their own uses and can be helpful for several reasons already mentioned. It can be very helpful in base coat - color coat-clear coat applications as these paints are very transparent and tend to "tiger stripe" so a colored primer can help. Even in base coat clear coat jobs I have opted to tint the sealer coat after the blocking is perfect on jobs that the base coat material is costly. (Paid $1,400 a gallon for a blend I shot last year) That said, I have used grey primer on the last 4 shoots and had no problem with coverage at all.

I would like to bring up a point that is not brought up as often as it should. It has to do with how long a car is in primer before it gets shot with its final color. I have had terrible luck on jobs that are in primer for over a year. Even with a thorough cleaning and a final hit of primer I have had fish eye and delams that just destroy a paint job. The best painter I know told me if he can not smell the paint out-gassing, he won't paint it. He has me doing what he does and blocking down the entire car and applying at least 2 coats of primer before even thinking about painting a car that has been sitting around for several months. Paint is too dang expensive to have to do twice.

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tibalda

Discussion Starter · #20 · 13 d ago

Robert Haas said:
I use DTM (Direct to metal) primers so using epoxy is no longer in my process. Colored primers have their own uses and can be helpful for several reasons already mentioned. It can be very helpful in base coat - color coat-clear coat applications as these paints are very transparent and tend to "tiger stripe" so a colored primer can help. Even in base coat clear coat jobs I have opted to tint the sealer coat after the blocking is perfect on jobs that the base coat material is costly. (Paid $1,400 a gallon for a blend I shot last year) That said, I have used grey primer on the last 4 shoots and had no problem with coverage at all.

I would like to bring up a point that is not brought up as often as it should. It has to do with how long a car is in primer before it gets shot with its final color. I have had terrible luck on jobs that are in primer for over a year. Even with a thorough cleaning and a final hit of primer I have had fish eye and delams that just destroy a paint job. The best painter I know told me if he can not smell the paint out-gassing, he won't paint it. He has me doing what he does and blocking down the entire car and applying at least 2 coats of primer before even thinking about painting a car that has been sitting around for several months. Paint is too dang expensive to have to do twice.

Thanks for that info. I have been trying to make sure I understand the issue around "timing" with priming and painting and you helped clarify something I will certainly face.

Art

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