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Stainless Trim Restoration
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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Exactly correct, It is the "right thing to do" for your customer.
Yup we will almost be completely rebuilding the motor a second time to remove any fine metal in the engine from this failure. I told Mickey that when
this go around is all done his engine bay will look just the same as the first time. No cutting corners on the second go around. Just how I do things.
 

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In my experience with FTC's, break in oil with all the additives already in the oil is better then adding a separate bottle to the oil.
But new parts can be and will continue to be questionable even under the perfect install and break in.
Todd
 

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I'm not a motor guy, so I'm just curious, on how does a cam shaft fail?
I can see how the (hydraulic) lifters fail ... collapse
and I had a valve stem guide fail in my newly rebuilt 235 ... seals reduced oil to stems
but cam shaft?.
 

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No cam manufacturer is going to do anything beyond replace their parts period. It's been like this since beginning of time. If you want a warranty, you need to hire a shop to build it that will break in on dyno and stand behind their build. Period. Nothing wrong with Howard's in my opinion. All are struggling with cam cores and hydraulic lifters. Comp is notably worse only cause they have 10 times the volume of all the other guys, probably combined at this point. Sell more = more failures. I don't trust their QC due to the volume so have tried to steer clear last few years.
 

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Stainless Trim Restoration
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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
I'm not a motor guy, so I'm just curious, on how does a cam shaft fail?
I can see how the (hydraulic) lifters fail ... collapse
and I had a valve stem guide fail in my newly rebuilt 235 ... seals reduced oil to stems
but cam shaft?.
It all has to do with the quality of the steel used. These days, quality control is not what it once was. Lifters are the biggest issue I have seen.
 

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It all has to do with the quality of the steel used. These days, quality control is not what it once was. Lifters are the biggest issue I have seen.
In addition to material quality it is also extremely critical that the contact area of the lifers get machined properly. They should have an ever so slight crown to them, not be completely flat. If they are perfectly flat they will not rotate properly and fail in short order.
 

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In addition to material quality it is also extremely critical that the contact area of the lifers get machined properly. They should have an ever so slight crown to them, not be completely flat. If they are perfectly flat they will not rotate properly and fail in short order.
Lots of misinformation about a flat tappet cam.

Flat tappet cams have a non square face to create a rotational force on the lifters to ensure they "spin" in their respective bores.The bores themself are also not in perfect alignment for this reason. Roller cams are flat and square.

A properly lubricated engine should never allow metal to metal contact between the lifter and the cam. A layer of lubrication should be present and prevent a metal to metal condition. (This is all moot if the oil is not present(Lack of oil pressure, contaminated oil, etc)

Cams going flat happens and seems to be happening more often then it used to. (Perhaps we are just hearing more about it due to this internet and the mass spread of information) I personally have had a cam or 4 go flat but it was due to running very high spring pressure and probably not keeping the oil as clean as I should. (Cold revving does not help either)

When Mikey gets this motor apart I am sure he will have more information to share, I know Mikey and Donavan would not put it back together without figuring out exactly what the problem was and correct it.
 

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I'm not a motor guy, so I'm just curious, on how does a cam shaft fail?
I can see how the (hydraulic) lifters fail ... collapse
and I had a valve stem guide fail in my newly rebuilt 235 ... seals reduced oil to stems
but cam shaft?.
The cam lobes (sort of egg shaped) and the lifters need to break in to mate each other perfectly. When they don't, or maybe just because of the raw materials used, they start to wear and instead of two perfectly smooth surfaces rubbing each other, they start grinding against each other and wear down. The specs of metal are then distributed through out the motor and to do things the right way (like he is doing) involves a complete teardown and overhaul.
 

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1956 chevy 210 del rey sedan
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ok so realistically you are looking at a freshen up of the short block $600-800
roller cam kit $1500 fluids $150 plus labor to R&R
 

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Stainless Trim Restoration
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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
The motor will be torn apart, all areas flushed and cleaned. All bearings and surfaces rechecked. Any parts showing any issue will be replaced.
Motor will be rebuilt, and detailed as it was the first time. We will road test for any issues and make sure this is the last time we need to be in this motor

There are a couple of small things Mickey would like addressed while it is here. None of them is related to the engine failure.

Transportation round trip will be around 2K and the cost of any and all new parts, and labor.......any way you want to look at it is going to be a cost
that was never factored into the price Mickey paid.

That said, it is the right thing to do, and God will provide the means to do it.

Mikey
 

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That said, it is the right thing to do, and God will provide the means to do it.

Mikey
This is really the bottom line. (which, unfortunately, will hit Mikey in the bottom line)

Did Mickey do something wrong (abuse or neglect the engine)?
Did Mikey and/or Donovan make a mistake assembling or breaking in the engine?
Did Howards provide defective parts?

Let's assume Mickey did nothing wrong. He's out $$$ and has a busted engine.

Howards says, "here's a replacement cam and lifters - have fun".

So, now what?

Mikey says, "I do good work, and I stand behind it".

These are the moments when you find what somebody's made of. It's easy to have integrity when it doesn't cost you anything!!!

Customer complaints/callbacks cost money, but not standing behind your work can cost you your business. How often have we seen complaints here about businesses that won't stand behind what they do? A few business names seem to pop up time and again here...

So, besides letting us know he has integrity, Mikey's telling us - "better watch out if you're using Howards cams".
 

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1957 Bel Air sport sedan
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My $0.02 worth of thoughts on the cam/lifter issue. Large companies buy raw materials in bulk, the more value in buying larger quantities of the same type of material. I would hazard a guess that the metallurgy of the flat tappet cams / lifters are the same as the newer roller cams/lifters and that may be the issue.
 

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Stainless Trim Restoration
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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
This is really the bottom line. (which, unfortunately, will hit Mikey in the bottom line)

Did Mickey do something wrong (abuse or neglect the engine)?
Did Mikey and/or Donovan make a mistake assembling or breaking in the engine?
Did Howards provide defective parts?

Let's assume Mickey did nothing wrong. He's out $$$ and has a busted engine.

Howards says, "here's a replacement cam and lifters - have fun".

So, now what?

Mikey says, "I do good work, and I stand behind it".

These are the moments when you find what somebody's made of. It's easy to have integrity when it doesn't cost you anything!!!

Customer complaints/callbacks cost money, but not standing behind your work can cost you your business. How often have we seen complaints here about businesses that won't stand behind what they do? A few business names seem to pop up time and again here...

So, besides letting us know he has integrity, Mikey's telling us - "better watch out if you're using Howards cams".
Thanks, I appreciate it, and all the comments!
When we get Mickeys convertible back we will be able to determine the extent of the issue. Until then what I have posted is
what we know for sure. We also know there was a coolant leak. To what extent that impacted this is still open to discussion. The drained oil was not
chocolate milkshake looking, and at 330 miles I have seen many engines run for longer miles than that with a blowen head gasket. And it never took
out a cam and lifters.
 
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I couldn't sleep at night knowing someone is shelling out all that money and time to fix a problem of mine that wasn't their fault.

I wouldn't want them to do it for me, it would make me feel guilty for taking advantage of the mechanic.

Now if it's my fault, certainly it's on my dime. No problem there.
 

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Trifive Certified Restoration Shop
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I feel your pain Mikey.

Been there myself with engine issues where the engines were built by a supposed reputable company and paid to have been dyno'd only to find they couldn't have dyno'd it if, on 1 the oil pump was laying in the oil pan(unattached), and a second where the rocker arms were nearly falling off the studs. After approval for repairs the bill's and receipts were sent to their departments and of coarse refused for some inexplicable reason we were left high and dry.

My son and I replaced a cam and lifter set in one of his cars per the motors manual and the cam makers instructions. After proper procedures, lubrication, and break in period 4 lifters failed within 50 miles of driving, subsequently taking out the cam again as well. We ordered a Lunati cam and lifter set the second time, followed the same procedures and have a well running motor this time around and has been running for going on 2 years now.

It's not always the builder or his procedures, sometimes it's just poor materials (aka Quality control) from the manufacturer.

I'm sure you'll get it back, go through everything and have Mickey back on the road regardless of who may have been at fault and with a detailed report of what happened.

Bless you Mikey for being a stand up guy in this world where so many would rather pass the blame and buck onto someone else.
 

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I feel your pain Mikey.

Been there myself with engine issues where the engines were built by a supposed reputable company and paid to have been dyno'd only to find they couldn't have dyno'd it if, on 1 the oil pump was laying in the oil pan(unattached), and a second where the rocker arms were nearly falling off the studs. After approval for repairs the bill's and receipts were sent to their departments and of coarse refused for some inexplicable reason we were left high and dry.

My son and I replaced a cam and lifter set in one of his cars per the motors manual and the cam makers instructions. After proper procedures, lubrication, and break in period 4 lifters failed within 50 miles of driving, subsequently taking out the cam again as well. We ordered a Lunati cam and lifter set the second time, followed the same procedures and have a well running motor this time around and has been running for going on 2 years now.

It's not always the builder or his procedures, sometimes it's just poor materials (aka Quality control) from the manufacturer.

I'm sure you'll get it back, go through everything and have Mickey back on the road regardless of who may have been at fault and with a detailed report of what happened.

Bless you Mikey for being a stand up guy in this world where so many would rather pass the blame and buck onto someone else.
I couldn't sleep at night knowing someone is shelling out all that money and time to fix a problem of mine that wasn't their fault.

I wouldn't want them to do it for me, it would make me feel guilty for taking advantage of the mechanic.

Now if it's my fault, certainly it's on my dime. No problem there.
Mikey,
I have read all the coments here. I can see clearly it'S not your fault. But, that being said, you are stepping to the plate and taking care of it for both your customer and for your own reputation. I wholeheartedly appreciate seeing someone standing up and doing the right thing. A mans word (reputation) is only as good as he is, and this show very well for you and for your business. From one rodder to another-THANK YOU!
 

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All too often the cam profiles used on the street are too high of pressure angles (too fast rise rate) and spring forces too high. Factor that in with poor quality flat tapped lifters and poor lubrication with improper break in, and the rate of failure goes to 100%. Flat tapped cams were in millions and millions of vehicles and functioning perfectly. The internet has made flat tapped cams failures a common occurrence because of the for mentioned factors. But if one feels the need for roller cam and all the associated expense to retrofit then go for it. Just know they have their own set of problems in retrofitted applications. I would rather put my cash into a good set of cylinder heads.
 
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