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57 3-Speed Stick w/Overdrive

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alhewitt

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Old school here and installing a period correct Muncie 319 circa 1957 transmission w/ overdrive in my 57. The Muncie 319 is a 3 speed standard transmission with overdrive. My 57 has a 3 speed Muncie 318 win it which is a close ratio transmission with out overdrive and 4.56 rear axel gears. It is not a freeway driver as at 70 MPH I'm running close to 4,000 RPM. The car is very stock and this installation is about appearing factory correct so I'm rounding up the correct parts to make a complete working system.

I have the transmission in a shop going through an overhaul and in hand I have a working 12V; solenoid, relay and kick down switch. The 4th component is the governor and I have one but I'm having trouble making it work. The purpose of the governor is to close a set of contacts when the car's speed reaches about 30 MPH. I can spin it with a drill motor and with the cover off I see the weights spinning but during test it does not close the contacts. So I need more details about the internal operation of this governor and I'm wondering if others may have been down this road before. I can vary the speed at which I spin the governor so I believe I'm spinning it fast enough for it to work, I just don't see the contact's closing operation happening. Maybe someone has one of these and make it available to me to buy.
Thanks
Al
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
57 3 Speed Stick w/ Overdrive

The car is a black, 150, 2 door, post car with factory FI. I took the governor apart and fixed it this afternoon. Some parts were frozen inside from disuse. Works now. I'll get the overdrive installed this winter and plan to drive it. The car was in a collection for 30 years so it needs to be exercised.
Thanks,
Al
 

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Discussion starter · #4 ·
Continuing with my overdrive story,

The new 3 speed Muncie with the Borg Warner overdrive tail shaft – is installed and today I did a test drive. This is right out of the new car order book for our Tri 5's and it was offered on all cars except those with high performance engines; in 57 that would have been a dual 4 – barrel or FI car. I’ve been working with my transmission builder on this project for a while and got it all together last night. As mine is an FI car I’m concerned about how well this transmission will hold up. The transmission builder is Bill Erickson here in Seattle and he has sent the gears out to be cygrogenits (SP) treated, a process to increase the strength of the gears. We’ll see how they hold up…
My car was a factory 3 speed car with a close ratio Muncie in it. That is a 2.2:1 first gear and a 1.3:1 (I believe) in second gear and 1.0:1 in third gear. It has a 4.56:1 rear axle and generally is a good around town driver. But get it on the freeway and at 75 MPH it’s running close to 4,000RPM. This is not a good highway car and some of the shows I attend are an hour away making the commute a hassle. I have geared up – so to speak – and now have an overdrive. Its gearing is of the wide ratio or; 2.94:1 first, 1.68:1 second and 1.0:1 third. In overdrive the ratios are increased by 30% or 0.7. This will reduce the 4,000 RPM high way RPM's by 30% or down to 2,800 RPM at highway speeds. If I chose to I can use the overdrive while shifting through the gears and make it behave like a 6 speed as with the wide ratio gears the 30% increase works out to; 2.94:1 first (under), 2.06:1 first (over), 1.68:1 second (under), 1.18:1 second (over), 1:1 third (under) and 0.7:1 third (over).

This is an electrically operated system and uses a fused circuit from the 12V side of the ballast resistor, a relay for switching the higher amperage load of the solenoid, a kick down switch for more power when needed, a governor to allow operations starting at 25 MPH and higher and a push pull cable to engage the system. I had this system on a 57 Chev I had many years ago and liked it a lot.

Today I installed the over drive, wow what a difference. Got it on the interstate and at 70+ MPH I'm running 2600 RPM. 85 MPH shows 3,200 RPM and it is smooth as glass albeit a little noisy in second gear. The electrics work well and the kick-down system is a kick in the pants.

I'm rationalization this transmission expense as a gas saver but the reality of is with so many gears available it won't save gas around town, it is too fun to drive and use the gears. Maybe on the highway... Al
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
The drive shaft is the same length for both overdrive transmission cars and standard 3, both the same length driveshaft. The speed-o-meter cable is on the same side but farther back. I may need a longer cable.

While in overdrive there is no compression braking below 30 MPH when the governor opens the circuit.

I did do a 6 speed acceleration run. Not WOT but spirited acceleration, by the time I got it in to 3rd over I was up to 70 MPH.

The kick-down switch takes it from an overdrive gear to standard or non overdrive (lower) gear. The intent is to act like a passing gear. If I hammer the accelerator in first gear at any speed the tires break lose in this car. Today while doing some testing I kicked it down from second over to second under and the tires broke lose. What a kick in the pants...

It appears that I have decent road car now so commuting to car shows in 2018 will be more enjoyable.

Al
 
#8 · (Edited)
Why do people keep calling these old 3spds a Muncie?????????????????????
They are a Saginaw!
Oh ya, and it's a tail HOUSING (or more correctly, an extension housing), not a tail shaft.
 

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#12 ·
#13 ·
Discussion starter · #15 ·
DZAUTO said:
Why do people keep calling these old 3spds a Muncie?????????????????????
They are a Saginaw!
Oh ya, and it's a tail HOUSING (or more correctly, an extension housing), not a tail shaft.
Click to expand...
Tom and All,
It appears that many component's description were named from the city they were made in, i.e. the factory's location; Ford used Cleveland to describe a series of their engines, the engine in my Vette was assembled in Wixom and carries that moniker. So it seems were transmissions and we all have heard the term Muncie when referring to 4-speeds, that would be Muncie, IN. In 1957 when the 4-speed was introduced it was called a T10
and presumably made by Borg-Warner. I believe that Ford, GM and Chrysler all purchased this transmission from Borg-Warner.

By 1964 GM had their own 4-speed ready and today it is what is known as a Muncie. I'm guessing here but the T10 was cast iron and quite heavy so in 1958 Chev went to side engine mounts with a third mount as a cross-member. Later model transmissions have this mounting provision in the tail housing.

I believe after talking to my transmission man that Chev used their Muncie plant to build the 3-speeds used up to about 1962 and after that they used a 3-speed built in Saginaw. There is a big difference between these transmissions from both operational and internals. The Saginaw being more robust, quieter in first and second gears and featuring synchromesh first gear.

The tail housing and not tail shaft as I was incorrectly calling it could also be built in-house with the transmission except when it was an overdrive. These were the product of Borg-Warner who later became Tremec.

Thanks to Dave for clarification that a 318 is a 3-speed and 319 is a 3-speed with overdrive. I don't know where those numbers were used, maybe on the RPO at order time in the day.

Al
 
#16 · (Edited)
With the exception of the HD 3sp, which was used in the later 60s, ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL 55-later 3spds were Saginaw transmissions. AND, when searching for parts in the Chevrolet parts book, the ONLY specific reference to a Muncie transmission is the 4sp which was introduced in the mid-63 production year (full size cars switched from the B-W T-10 before the Corvette did).
MANY of the 3sp and 3spOD parts are interchangeable---------------AND/OR ARE THE SAME. BOTH the 55-65 3spOD and 66-later 3spOD transmissions are SAGINAW----------------REGARDLESS of where they were made. The Overdrive section (on both 55-65 and 66-later) is B-W-----------------BUT THE TRANSMISSION IS STILL A SAGINAW.
Also, 4sp references in the parts listings for a T-10 is: w/Warner 4sp and w/Muncie 4sp.
UNFORTUNATELY, in Alvin Colvin's books, he INCORRECTLY references the 3spds (EXCEPT the later HD 3sp) as Muncie. THAT IS INCORRECT!!!! They are all Saginaw 3spds! MUCH of his information is from GM archives and NOT, repeat, NOT from actual hands on experience with the genuine parts and assemblies.
The MAJOR differences between the 55-65 and 66-later Saginaw 3spds, is that the 55-65 are NOT synchronized in 1st gear and the 66-later 3spds are fully synchronized in all forward gears. And of course, the 66-later 3sp is a more robust transmission.
AND one more time, the 55-65 and 66-later 3spds (EXCEPT the HD 3sp, which is a Warner), are SAGINAW! I heavily emphasize this because when ordering parts, all the parts are for a Saginaw.

HELL NO I do not know it all, but for over 55yrs I've been jacking with cars (MOSTLY Chevys) and learning what fits, what works and what does not. My very first experience with Chevy transmissions was 49-54 3spds that were used on closed drive shaft cars. My uncle (Mom's older brother) was a factory trained Chevy mechanic and I give him credit for my early "mechanical education". He taught and showed me a LOT of stuff that was NOT in the service manuals, particularly various short cuts which were faster and better than the service manual procedures. When I was going through pre-med in the 60s, I could NOT hardly pay for any car repairs. I had to learn how fix everything myself. My uncle was a savior in that respect!!! I've worked on and/or rebuilt many GM engines (again, MOSTLY Chevy engines), done some things to them that "cannot be done", and worked on some Ford engines and HEMIs. I broke and rebuilt LOTS of 49-54 and 55-later 3spds, learned that NONE of the 55-63 and 64-65 parts are interchangeable (gear angles and spline angles changed) even though they are the SAME design and inside the SAME case! Then in the early 60s I acquired my first (almost junk) 4sp and my uncle taught me how to thoroughly go through it and rebuild it. Now I rebuild 4spds (mostly Muncies) almost blind folded, and have learned how to "save" some that would have been scrap metal. From there I moved to rearends and now I rebuild all my own rearends as well as for other people.
Last, I got into Rochester FI rebuilding (out of necessity) almost 45yrs ago, and now I do them for customers around the country.
So, like I said, I don't know everything about everything, but I've learned a lot and I try to pass along what I can, and yes, I know that I piss people off because of my frequent emphasis on what is and what is not correct. I do that as an effort to help someone NOT waste time and money on things that do not result in what was expected. A LOT of people come here for help and advice about what works and what does not work. I only KNOW what I KNOW and I make every effort to NOT pass along BS.
My latest endeavors have been doing a total restoration on a WWII bomber------------------AND ZERO MISTAKES NOR WASTING OF FUNDS ARE ACCEPTABLE ON THAT PROJECT!
 
#17 · (Edited)
DZAUTO said:
My latest endeavors have been doing a total restoration on a WWII bomber------------------AND ZERO MISTAKES NOR WASTING OF FUNDS ARE ACCEPTABLE ON THAT PROJECT!
Click to expand...
Which plane are you working on? I spent a couple of years helping on the restoration of Bob Colling's B-17 after it crashed at an airshow in Beaver PA. We also restored a PBJ-1D (B-25) for the Naval Air Museum in Pensacola along with a P-47 and an A-20 for private owners (originaly David Tallichet's, but sold as part of his estate when he died). I know there are acceptable shortcuts when working on cars but there are NONE when working on aircraft. One of my life's regrets is not buying one of the B-25's that was used in the movie "Catch 22". The plane had been placed in a local cemetery as a military memorial and was fully intact. The cemetery decided it was becoming too weathered looking and decided to sell it. It went for only $30K.
 
#18 · (Edited)
We are restoring a Douglass A-26 Invader. Our group has been working on this plane for almost 19yrs, to restore it to FULL flying condition. When finished, we will be going to airshows around the country.

The pictures are 15yrs ago, today, and the projected (photoshopped) finished version. When it's finished and flying, it will be better than the day it rolled out of the back door of the Douglass plant in Tulsa, OK!!!! It has been totally, completely torn down to the bare airframe and every square inch of the plane has been repaired or restored or replaced. Our engines are virtually brand new. It has been about 30yrs this plane was last flown. It sat, ABANDONED, on an airfield in Ark for almost 7yrs when we disassembled it, had it hauled to Okla City on semi trucks and began taking it apart. It is absolutely unbelievable the neglect that we discovered. There was a time when we said "My God, what have we gotten ourselves into???????". Well, almost 19yrs later, here is where we are with it!

Also here are a few videos of the VERY FIRST engine start up about 1yr ago since they had been totally overhauled 6yrs earlier.
Also, start up a few weeks ago and some very short taxi runs to check various systems. If you have never been involved in this kind of a restoration project, there is NO WAY you can understand nor appreciate how much of an emotional time this was for all of our group members. We probably have another year to go before the first test flight.
I had a very difficult time holding the camera still through the tears!!!
If you like this sort of stuff, turn up the volume. If you do not like this kind of stuff, skip the videos and pictures.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4kWsR-FnEg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRgjyURaA78

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=809-4ZegClU

In this video I'm at the back window waving to spectators. This was during our annual open house at the Guthrie, OK airport.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNs1DbG_Glo
 

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Discussion starter · #19 ·
DZAUTO said:
With the exception of the HD 3sp, which was used in the later 60s, ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL 55-later 3spds were Saginaw transmissions. AND, when searching for parts in the Chevrolet parts book, the ONLY specific reference to a Muncie transmission is the 4sp which was introduced in the mid-63 production year (full size cars switched from the B-W T-10 before the Corvette did).
MANY of the 3sp and 3spOD parts are interchangeable---------------AND/OR ARE THE SAME. BOTH the 55-65 3spOD and 66-later 3spOD transmissions are SAGINAW----------------REGARDLESS of where they were made. The Overdrive section (on both 55-65 and 66-later) is B-W-----------------BUT THE TRANSMISSION IS STILL A SAGINAW.
Also, 4sp references in the parts listings for a T-10 is: w/Warner 4sp and w/Muncie 4sp.
UNFORTUNATELY, in Alvin Colvin's books, he INCORRECTLY references the 3spds (EXCEPT the later HD 3sp) as Muncie. THAT IS INCORRECT!!!! They are all Saginaw 3spds! MUCH of his information is from GM archives and NOT, repeat, NOT from actual hands on experience with the genuine parts and assemblies.
The MAJOR differences between the 55-65 and 66-later Saginaw 3spds, is that the 55-65 are NOT synchronized in 1st gear and the 66-later 3spds are fully synchronized in all forward gears. And of course, the 66-later 3sp is a more robust transmission.
AND one more time, the 55-65 and 66-later 3spds (EXCEPT the HD 3sp, which is a Warner), are SAGINAW! I heavily emphasize this because when ordering parts, all the parts are for a Saginaw.

HELL NO I do not know it all, but for over 55yrs I've been jacking with cars (MOSTLY Chevys) and learning what fits, what works and what does not. My very first experience with Chevy transmissions was 49-54 3spds that were used on closed drive shaft cars. My uncle (Mom's older brother) was a factory trained Chevy mechanic and I give him credit for my early "mechanical education". He taught and showed me a LOT of stuff that was NOT in the service manuals, particularly various short cuts which were faster and better than the service manual procedures. When I was going through pre-med in the 60s, I could NOT hardly pay for any car repairs. I had to learn how fix everything myself. My uncle was a savior in that respect!!! I've worked on and/or rebuilt many GM engines (again, MOSTLY Chevy engines), done some things to them that "cannot be done", and worked on some Ford engines and HEMIs. I broke and rebuilt LOTS of 49-54 and 55-later 3spds, learned that NONE of the 55-63 and 64-65 parts are interchangeable (gear angles and spline angles changed) even though they are the SAME design and inside the SAME case! Then in the early 60s I acquired my first (almost junk) 4sp and my uncle taught me how to thoroughly go through it and rebuild it. Now I rebuild 4spds (mostly Muncies) almost blind folded, and have learned how to "save" some that would have been scrap metal. From there I moved to rearends and now I rebuild all my own rearends as well as for other people.
Last, I got into Rochester FI rebuilding (out of necessity) almost 45yrs ago, and now I do them for customers around the country.
So, like I said, I don't know everything about everything, but I've learned a lot and I try to pass along what I can, and yes, I know that I piss people off because of my frequent emphasis on what is and what is not correct. I do that as an effort to help someone NOT waste time and money on things that do not result in what was expected. A LOT of people come here for help and advice about what works and what does not work. I only KNOW what I KNOW and I make every effort to NOT pass along BS.
My latest endeavors have been doing a total restoration on a WWII bomber------------------AND ZERO MISTAKES NOR WASTING OF FUNDS ARE ACCEPTABLE ON THAT PROJECT!
Click to expand...
"I know that I piss people off because of my frequent emphasis on what is and what is not correct."

I would not be concerned about offending someone Tom, certainly not me, your contributions and knowledge are why many of us are here.
Thanks for being a source if information... Al
 
#20 · (Edited)
northwoods said:
Question: is the information correct about 318 & 319 trans codes?? I thought the 318 meant standard 3speed, 319 meant it had overdrive. And the RARE close ratio trans was something else....option 303? Just wondering...
Click to expand...
My first car was a 57 with 3 speed Saginaw. While in college and broke, I blew the 2nd gear synchronizer and installed a 3 speed trans out of a 56 panel truck. There were two differences between the truck and car transmissions; 1: The truck trans had the bottom mounting bolt holes threaded so that the bolts came through from the front of the bell housing to the trans, necessitating me filing the threads out of the trans case; 2: it was a close ratio, with a lower first and close 2nd and a distant 3rd. It made it shift from first to second like a 4 speed and then it was like you skipped 3rd and went to 4th.
 
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