[Chevynut]

I will need to do some filler work to match my quarters to my tailights, as well as to fill the seams where I weld my new quarters back on. I removed the factory lead at the original joints and was planning to replace the lead, but I'm having second thoughts. I can do lead work, but I'm wondering if I should.

I know Steve's Auto restorations uses lead extensively, and no plastic fillers at all. But I'm hearing that most guys nowadays use plastic fillers. The advantage of lead is that it's permanent and it's expansion rate is similar to steel. But plastic is much easier to use.

The bottom of the b-pillar on a Nomad is notorious for cracking. I am wondering is plastic filler would be more forgiving there, or if lead would be stronger and less prone to cracking.

Where is All-metal or Metal2Metal better to use than regular fillers? I understand it's harder to work, but it's also tougher and less apt to crack and chip.

Still not sure what to do....part of me wants to use lead everywhere, but I wonder if that's the right path to take. Any input?

 

[Tuned55]

I wonder if that ould be a good place for Kitty Hair?

 

[Chevynut]

I haven't seen many hairy "kittys" lately. LOL!!

 

[Rick_L]

You say that lead is similar in thermal expansion rate to steel. I don't know how close, but consider the fact that body filler, no matter what it's thermal expansion, is not stiff, so it will move with the steel. The filler probably expands more than the steel. So IMO the most important thing here is not thermal expansion, but the strength of the bonding between the materials. I think that body filler and lead both have adequate bonding for most situations.

As for cracking, All Metal and Metal2metal are a lot more brittle than body filler. This means that if dinged the wrong way, it will crack. In a similar situation, body filler might elastically bend. (Ask me how I know.)

One advantage of All Metal and Metal2metal, as well as the "kitty hair", is that they are water resistant. That makes them a good candidate for the first coat of filler over a patch panel weld joint where there may be a spot of porosity or a spot ground thin. This would limit rust attack from the back side, especially where you can't finish the backside of the weld or apply primer.

A disadvantage of All Metal, Metal2metal, and the "kitty hair" products is that they are harder than body filler, and they are hard to sand and sculpt. So a first coat of those followed by body filler makes for the best of both.

Considering the negative effects of lead and the extra work to apply it and adequately clean the area, I think lead should be pretty limited.

If you want to take a photo of your car or show it in bare metal, looking finished, a la some features in Street Rodder mag or some car shows, go lead. Otherwise filler is good IMO.

Then there is the age old argument about removing all the old lead and replacing with new lead or filler. I think if it lasted 50 years without distress, leave it. If it is distressed, then do renew it.

I think one of the problems with the Nomad B pillars is that they corroded under the lead (maybe as a result of bad lead application, maybe for other reasons. Seems to me that stripping that area and doing some good metal work would be a good idea - then apply minimal filler of your choice.

 

[MikeKy55]

I like the way Rick thinks.

So a first coat of those followed by body filler makes for the best of both.

I have for years on both hot rods and street vehicles done exactly the above. I usually try to get the kitty hair close during application, then hit it with a disc grinder for a rough in. I try to make it about 1/32th of an inch lower that the finished surface will be. Then skim it with filler.

 

[Hotroddder]

I remove all the lead from factory joints clean it well, grind and wire brush to make sure all the lead is gone. First step is to use Duraglass. This produce is waterproof when hardened. As far as I know it is the only one that makes that claim. So moisture will not be able to get into the filler if it is not topcoated promptly, which in my shop could be months. I DA that down below the metal surface and then go over that with my favorite body filler.

Hotroddder

 

[Dale's57]

I agree with the others, I would use a product something like Fibre Strand, Duraglass, Metal to Metal, etc as a first coat to form a water tight barrier. These are difficult to sand and shape, so then I would then use a good quality body filler for shaping.

These water resistant products are great to use were moisture can get through from the back side. Nothing worse than a beautiful paint job that starts to bubble from the inside out after moisture gets to the filler.

 

[L&L CUSTOM PERFORMANCE]

THE PROBLEM WITH THE OLD LEAD IS THAT MANY OF THE NEW PAINT SOLVENTS ARE VERY "HOT" SO TO SPEAK AND THE BITE IN AND ARE ABSORDED BY OLD LEAD AS WELL AS ANY OLD FILLER OR PAINT . PROBLEM IS THE DON'T SEAM TO RELEASE THE SOLVENTS UNTILL AFTER ALL YOUR HARD WORK IS FINISH . THEN YOU TAKE IT OUT IN THE SUN AND IT STARTS TO COOK .
I HAVE SEEN SOLVENT POPING . LARGE AIR BUBBLES { CANDY APPLE RED CHEVELLE , DON'T ASK!!!] SO THAT IS WHY MANY MANUFACTURE'S AND PAINT REPS RECOMEND COMPLETE STRIPPING .
I HAVE FOUND THAT SPRAYING A GOOD EPOXEY PRIMER OR POLY SURFACER SUCH AS DP 90 OR SIKINS WORKS WELL IN CREATING A GOOD BARRIER COAT OVER THE FACTORY LEAD JOINTS UNLESS THEY LOOK LIKE THEY ALREADY HAVE ISSUES, THEN I REMOVE THE FACTORY LEAD COMPLETLY AND REPLACE IT WITH A SKIM COAT OF KITTY HAIR AND THE TOP COAT FILLER .
WE THE RUFF OUT ANY AREA'S THAT NEED FILLER WORK . WE THE APPLY 3 COATS OF SIKENS POLY SURFACER AND DO OUR INITIAL BLOCKING WITH 80 AND THEN 180 AFTER THAT WE USE 2 PART PRIMERS AND SEALERS TO FINSH.
SINCE I STARTED USEING THE POLY SURFACER I HAVE HAD NO PROBLEMS WITH SAND SCRATCH SWELLING OR SHRINKAGE OF THE UNDER LYING FILLERS.
I HAVE USE LEAD A FAIR AMOUNT OVER THE YEARS BUT I AM NOT REALLY HAPPY WITH THE QUALITY OF THE PRODUCTS THAT I CAN GET IN THIS AREA. AND THE SUPPLIERS SEEM TO CHANGE EVERYTIME I ORDER.

GOOD LUCK THE NOMAD IS TURNING OUT FANTASTIC LARRY
www.llcustomperformance.com

 

[hotrod4dr55]

All-metal

I removed all the lead from my 2-door. I reworked these areas by blasting the joints, then applying All-metal. Afterwards, I just knocked down and shaped the All-metal with a high-speed sander, cleaned, then applied Blue Ice filler. You wouldn't have to do it this way, I just found that most of the leaded areas are at curved locations and the regular filler is much easier to work with.

Like you and others referred, I started with All-metal for the moisture resistance on the lap joints.

 

[Nutjob]

I've heard one of the problems with leadwork is that the flux used to apply it contains acid. Over time, no matter how well you think you neutralized the acid, it eventaully separates from the paint. This allows in moisture, bubbles the paint, etc. It may take 30+ years, though, which is possibly longer than some plastic body filler might last.

 

[ProMetalShop]

The bottom of the b-pillar on a Nomad is notorious for cracking. I am wondering is plastic filler would be more forgiving there, or if lead would be stronger and less prone to cracking.

Where is All-metal or Metal2Metal better to use than regular fillers? I understand it's harder to work, but it's also tougher and less apt to crack and chip.

Still not sure what to do....part of me wants to use lead everywhere, but I wonder if that's the right path to take. Any input?

Chevynut
While you have the car stripped now will be a good time to address the B-pillar probblem. Find its weak area and reinforce it from the inside were ever possible. Allmetal is a great product as some of the higher end fillers but in the B-pillar area there should be very little fillers use when it is a stressed area. Pay more effort to the metal finnish in this area and stay with an extra coat ir two of primer filler. This will net you great results.

 

[mokicruz]

Does Electrolysis from lead cause the rust in the Higher moisture areas of a car. I had several body men tell me it's the prime reason for rust in the trunk slash panels and paint doesn't stick to lead very well. Since the top of the quarter panels hardly ever rust and paint sticks like cement to it how bad can it be??

 

[56-210sedan]

I haven't seen many hairy "kittys" lately. LOL!!

Laszlo, Leave Ricky out of this kitty hair thing

 

[Rick_L]

"Does Electrolysis from lead cause the rust in the Higher moisture areas of a car."

Actually you're probably thinking about galvanic corrosion, not electrolysis.
It requires a conductive solution (like water) linking the 2 metals. So if you have that, you have a paint/primer failure. So it's a result, not a cause.

 

[mokicruz]

It seemed far fetched but when you look at it that way it makes more sense.

The phosphorous solution used before primer sounds like it would be a good treatment to use after a soda blast and washing with water. I've never used it but it has a reputation of stopping rust far up to a year inside shops with little temp fluctuations. The seams and laps in the body after a soda blast and a good bath are hard to dry. I was curious as to whether the phosphorous treatment would do anything at all. http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5077332-description.html this is used on Equipment going to Alaska before the epoxy primer. Sand blasting and washing pier structural beams with it was supposed bond paint well enough it would be rust free for years. I hear people bragging about how well things work till it turns into the return of Mother Teresa.

 

[56-210sedan]

Laszlo what did you end up doing here?

 

[Chevynut]

Laszlo what did you end up doing here?

Marty, I haven't touched the bodywork for some time, since I've been working on plumbing, wiring, and my air intake. I don't know for sure what I'm going to do in this area.

 

[Rick_L]

I had some All Metal crack on me on a quarter panel. I would recommend that any area where you use it be fairly well reinforced. Polyester filler can stand more strain than All Metal.

This is not a dig on All Metal. Just use it or filler in the right spot.

 

[fiftyfivegasser]

Laszlo; I used the Metal2Metal around the A&B pillars as fill where I welded them in just as extra security. Didn't feel that regular filler would be too good due to the flexing in these areas. Once cured, be prepared to do a little xtra work in smoothing as this stuff gets hard as steel. I worked the areas down with different discs in a drimmel until I was at the smoothing stage...finished out with hand sanding.

 

[HotRodJoe]

Any opinion on Kitty Hair product (by Evercoat) vs. Duraglas? Pretty much the same, I assume?

Joe