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I find those air duct thermometers with the tiny dial have large differences from one thermometer to another. Maybe that's part of the problem when describing air duct temperatures, and diagnosing/fixing problems over the internet.

I think they are better used as a "relative" measurement. I.e., is your air duct cooler or warmer than when you last checked, and is the system cooling better or worse?

Just thinking out loud here.
 
Discussion starter · #42 ·
I'm going to take the car for a run later this morning. There is a "Cars And Coffee" event at Cattle Dogs Coffee Roasters from 8:00 till 11:00. It's about a 20 mile round trip.

One of my friends is bringing his IR gun which I'm going to borrow till I get a temp device of my own.

I won't have an opportunity to add more R134 before then. I do have a scale which I can use and will add 4 oz to the system.
 
I'm going to take the car for a run later this morning. There is a "Cars And Coffee" event at Cattle Dogs Coffee Roasters from 8:00 till 11:00. It's about a 20 mile round trip.

One of my friends is bringing his IR gun which I'm going to borrow till I get a temp device of my own.

I won't have an opportunity to add more R134 before then. I do have a scale which I can use and will add 4 oz to the system.
I am good friends with Wagzilla (James). We talk on the phone often and happened to talk about this thread yesterday. (During his career he has had much formal training in automotive A/C systems and it's one of his specialties in his work.)
He mentioned to me that those IR type thermometers aren't going to be reliable enough to make it worthwhile for this work.
He advises obtaining a DMM probe type of thermometer. High end ones are better but can be expensive but he did say for us guys that don't want to make the big investments, a cheap one like I gave the links to will be OK.

I'll post these links again to the cheap one I have. $65 total for the DMM and probe:

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/TENMA-72-7725-/72-7725

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/72-8364
 
Chuck,

As long as the suction fitting on the compressor is cold and sweaty, the unit is not undercharged. If the fitting is not cold enough to make it sweat, it is probably undercharged. An ideal level of charge uses up just about 100% of the liquid refrigerant as the refrigerant exits the evaporator. If it uses it up too soon, you are losing the capacity of that section of the evaporator that is only seeing vapor instead of liquid. That is how an evaporator cools, it boils cold, liquid refrigerant into warm, refrigerant vapor. Even a tiny amount of liquid will be sufficient to make the line cold.

The VA system has a Thermal Expansion Valve metering device on it, so it will not allow large excess of liquid to flood back to the compressor like most OEM systems that have a fixed orifice metering device.
The TXV will only open enough to allow the coil to get the proper amount of refrigerant, as long as the system has sufficient charge.
 
Chuck,

As long as the suction fitting on the compressor is cold and sweaty, the unit is not undercharged.
Since sweating is both a function of the dew point and the temperature of the fitting, that alone is not a complete indication of charge level.
 
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I find those air duct thermometers with the tiny dial have large differences from one thermometer to another. Maybe that's part of the problem when describing air duct temperatures, and diagnosing/fixing problems over the internet.



I think they are better used as a "relative" measurement. I.e., is your air duct cooler or warmer than when you last checked, and is the system cooling better or worse?



Just thinking out loud here.

I agree with this logic. Creates a baseline to compare against future results.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Discussion starter · #47 ·
I'm going to take the car for a run later this morning. There is a "Cars And Coffee" event at Cattle Dogs Coffee Roasters from 8:00 till 11:00. It's about a 20 mile round trip.

One of my friends is bringing his IR gun which I'm going to borrow till I get a temp device of my own.

I won't have an opportunity to add more R134 before then. I do have a scale which I can use and will add 4 oz to the system.
Went to the Cars N. Coffee event.

The duct temps were in the 46*--48* range, so they're going UP.

However, it was VERY hot and VERY humid today, even at 10:00 AM.

My buddy showed up with his IR gun. The car had been sitting for 15--20 minutes. We shot a few things before we fired up the car...

Therm. housing was 189*, valve covers were 145*, air cleaner lid was about 115*, alternator was 120*....

AND... the compressor was about 160*

But, after I fired up the car, and put the AC on MAX, the compressor temp dropped to 120*. So, it actually got cooler when it was running.

So, I'm going to get some tools first. Making a run to Harbor Freight on Monday. I might order the DMM with probe online. Have no time to fool with the car today.

I'm going to add 4 oz. of R134 first... Then check things out and keep an eye on things over the next several weeks...

THEN.... Depending.... it's decision time. Take it to an AC shop... or, if it's performing OK, let it be.
 
Went to the Cars N. Coffee event.

The duct temps were in the 46*--48* range, so they're going UP.

However, it was VERY hot and VERY humid today, even at 10:00 AM.

My buddy showed up with his IR gun. The car had been sitting for 15--20 minutes. We shot a few things before we fired up the car...

Therm. housing was 189*, valve covers were 145*, air cleaner lid was about 115*, alternator was 120*....

AND... the compressor was about 160*

But, after I fired up the car, and put the AC on MAX, the compressor temp dropped to 120*. So, it actually got cooler when it was running.

So, I'm going to get some tools first. Making a run to Harbor Freight on Monday. I might order the DMM with probe online. Have no time to fool with the car today.

I'm going to add 4 oz. of R134 first... Then check things out and keep an eye on things over the next several weeks...

THEN.... Depending.... it's decision time. Take it to an AC shop... or, if it's performing OK, let it be.

Out of all those numbers only ONE matters. The compressor temp when the A/C is running and gas been for 30 minutes or so. they always cool off at first when the system is turned on. it is the temp after it has been running that tells the tale.
46-48 is kind of warm and you probably could use the other 4 oz Freon.
 
Discussion starter · #49 ·
Since sweating is both a function of the dew point and the temperature of the fitting, that alone is not a complete indication of charge level.
Roger,

I do not disagree, but where Chuck lives, There is enough humidity that suction lines will sweat pretty much anytime. Same thing in Central Texas. If I went west a few hundred miles, the air is so dry that sweating of the suction lines is a hit-or-miss thing. I have been in the AC business for over 35 years, and this is one of the most reliable quick indicators of whether a system is working correctly. Usually, if the fitting is not cold enough to make it sweat, it is a pretty good bet that the unit is low on charge. If there is any liquid at all left in the suction line when it exits the evaporator, the suction line fitting will be very close to the evaporator discharge temp. If the suction fitting is say, 70 degrees, it is a safe bet that the evaporator probably has used up all the liquid before it exits the evaporator, and therefore, is probably at least a little undercharged.
 
Discussion starter · #51 · (Edited)
If it 90 degree's out side and the charge is right, I almost never see the compressor over 140 degree's if the compressor is under a 100 degree's you have to much oil and you have a good chance of slugging it, if its over the 140 degree's I going to add 1/2 oz oil,and watch the temp drops.


James
James, I will call you later today, at about 4:00 PM MY time... which should be 12:00 to 1:00 depending on the daylight savings time issue.

This morning, I added 4 oz of R134, making the total charge 28 oz.

My compressor is running at 140*... after it had been running for 10 minutes or so.

Before I added R134, my duct temp was 44*. It's much cooler today here in Florida... in the low to mid 80's. On Sunday, it was mid 90's.

After I added 4 oz, which I checked by weighing on a scale, my low pressure gauge is showing about 25 PSI. I'm still getting 44* air out of the ducts today, so there was no change.

I have not yet received the DMM with probe, so I used an IR gun.

Inlet fitting to the evaporator was sweaty... and the temp at the inlet was also 44*.
 
James, I will call you later today, at about 4:00 PM MY time... which should be 12:00 to 1:00 depending on the daylight savings time issue.

This morning, I added 4 oz of R134, making the total charge 28 oz.

My compressor is running at 140*... after it had been running for 10 minutes or so.

Before I added R134, my duct temp was 44*. It's much cooler today here in Florida... in the low to mid 80's. On Sunday, it was mid 90's.

After I added 4 oz, which I checked by weighing on a scale, my low pressure gauge is showing about 25 PSI. I'm still getting 44* air out of the ducts today, so there was no change.

I have not yet received the DMM with probe, so I used an IR gun.

Inlet fitting to the evaporator was sweaty... and the temp at the inlet was also 44*.
Chuck,

I am used to my VA systems running at substantially less than the suction pressure you are reporting. My cars all run at about 12-15 PSI at fast idle (1500 rpm) and a duct temp of 36-38 degrees. You have to check charge at a fast idle, or the pressure readings are almost meaningless.

Keep in mind, that overcharging the system will make the compressor run hot as well, since it is having to work harder. I would check the high side pressure and see if it is running higher than you would expect for the outside air temp. There is a point of charge, where adding refrigerant will do no more cooling, but at that point, high side pressure starts going up without doing any more cooling.

The ideal situation, is that the evaporator will use up 100% of the liquid refrigerant just as it leaves the evaporator. If it uses it up too soon, you lose capacity, and if you have lots of liquid left over, you just burn more power compressing refrigerant without getting any additional cooling from it. In the worst case, you can return liquid to the compressor and damage the valves, but a VA system uses a Thermal Expansion Valve, which minimizes the possibility of liquid "slugging" to the compressor.

That being said, there is no ONE rule for charging a system. You have to treat it as a system and check low side pressure, high side pressure, Ambient outside air temp, temp inside the car, suction return temp and duct temp. This is the only way to get a proper insight into how a system is operating, and is the only way to zero in on any components that may not be preforming properly. My gut instinct is that your system is overcharged, but it is hard to form a proper diagnosis with the limited information provided.

There are some rules of thumb for checking charge on a VA system. Low side pressure should be in the 10-20 PSI range, high side should be about 2 times ambient + 15-20% So, on a 100 degree day, the high side pressure should be about 230 - 240 PSI, assuming you have good air flow over the condensor.
If the low side pressure is high and high side is also high, then you can bet the farm that the unit is overcharged. If the low side is high, but the high side does not run high, you probably have damaged valves in the compressor. (this is usually caused by overcharging) If high side is good or even high, while the low side is unusually low, can indicate a bad TXV.

Now, for the grandaddy of VA problems. This one item is responsible for way more problems than are realized. This is the heater valve. If the heater valve is installed backwards, it will allow hot water to leak through the coil, causing higher than expected discharge temps and funky low side pressures. Likewise, if you have the valve on the wrong hose, hot water will migrate to the coil and affect the cooling as well. Over time, these valves can leak even if installed correctly. When I am troubleshooting a system, the first thing I do is pull both heater hoses and plug them. That way, there is no possibility that the heater is fighting the cooling coil.

I know you are looking for a quick and easy solution, but there are too many moving parts to one of these systems to be able to condense it down to a couple of sentences.
 
Discussion starter · #53 ·
Chuck,

I am used to my VA systems running at substantially less than the suction pressure you are reporting. My cars all run at about 12-15 PSI at fast idle (1500 rpm) and a duct temp of 36-38 degrees. You have to check charge at a fast idle, or the pressure readings are almost meaningless.

Keep in mind, that overcharging the system will make the compressor run hot as well, since it is having to work harder. I would check the high side pressure and see if it is running higher than you would expect for the outside air temp. There is a point of charge, where adding refrigerant will do no more cooling, but at that point, high side pressure starts going up without doing any more cooling.

The ideal situation, is that the evaporator will use up 100% of the liquid refrigerant just as it leaves the evaporator. If it uses it up too soon, you lose capacity, and if you have lots of liquid left over, you just burn more power compressing refrigerant without getting any additional cooling from it. In the worst case, you can return liquid to the compressor and damage the valves, but a VA system uses a Thermal Expansion Valve, which minimizes the possibility of liquid "slugging" to the compressor.

That being said, there is no ONE rule for charging a system. You have to treat it as a system and check low side pressure, high side pressure, Ambient outside air temp, temp inside the car, suction return temp and duct temp. This is the only way to get a proper insight into how a system is operating, and is the only way to zero in on any components that may not be preforming properly. My gut instinct is that your system is overcharged, but it is hard to form a proper diagnosis with the limited information provided.

There are some rules of thumb for checking charge on a VA system. Low side pressure should be in the 10-20 PSI range, high side should be about 2 times ambient + 15-20% So, on a 100 degree day, the high side pressure should be about 230 - 240 PSI, assuming you have good air flow over the condensor.
If the low side pressure is high and high side is also high, then you can bet the farm that the unit is overcharged. If the low side is high, but the high side does not run high, you probably have damaged valves in the compressor. (this is usually caused by overcharging) If high side is good or even high, while the low side is unusually low, can indicate a bad TXV.

Now, for the grandaddy of VA problems. This one item is responsible for way more problems than are realized. This is the heater valve. If the heater valve is installed backwards, it will allow hot water to leak through the coil, causing higher than expected discharge temps and funky low side pressures. Likewise, if you have the valve on the wrong hose, hot water will migrate to the coil and affect the cooling as well. Over time, these valves can leak even if installed correctly. When I am troubleshooting a system, the first thing I do is pull both heater hoses and plug them. That way, there is no possibility that the heater is fighting the cooling coil.

I know you are looking for a quick and easy solution, but there are too many moving parts to one of these systems to be able to condense it down to a couple of sentences.
Thank you, John.

My DMM with probe has not arrived yet. When it does, I'm going to post a LOT of numbers. :D Inlet/Outlet on the condenser and evaporator. Same on the compressor... etc.

It's working OK now..., running 44* at the interior vents. Also running 44* at the inlet to the evaporator...

I'll report back. :D
 
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