500 box bolts?

C57heaven · Apr 29, 2013

I wondered this too. But my box bolted in without any fuss using the 10.9 bolts supplied. So if indeed they are supposed to be 3/8 like their instructions show has there been any damage done to my box threads with the 10.9s?

mitch hennings · Apr 29, 2013

early box ? new Box? a change made at some time. even the bolt on the top of mine are metric they have H P 8.8 on them and the nut holding my pitman arm uses a 34mm wrench .

davidc · Apr 29, 2013

John, that's why I keep responding. When it comes to brakes and steering, we all need the correct infomation. Thanks for all the replies.

pepegriffo · Apr 29, 2013

Hope Ya get help lifting that box into place to bolt on. I did mine myself. Took a 1/2 hour to push it up with one arm and set the carriage bolt with the other. I felt like I was in a weighting lifting class.

It did just bolt on to the frame.

C57heaven · Apr 29, 2013

pepegriffo said:
Hope Ya get help lifting that box into place to bolt on. I did mine myself. Took a 1/2 hour to push it up with one arm and set the carriage bolt with the other. I felt like I was in a weighting lifting class.

It did just bolt on to the frame.

yea; that darn thing is heavy doing by myself too. My box was recently purchased and installed. Believe it came through autocity to my vendor.
I'll have to check those top bolts, betting they're metric too.

Blinky · Apr 29, 2013

I've embarked on this same project with a new CPP 500 box, replacing a worn and leaking 605 in a '57 2 door hardtop.

Fun time has not been had by all, and 500 box is not installed.

Headers are in the way, front brake lines are in the way, and car does not have a 500-friendly steering column and rag joint in it. It's either a stock column that has been shortened, or some other GM column that who knows what it came out of. The PO cut a stock rag joint in half, drilled the rivets out, put bolts in it and WELDED it to the steering column.

I'll have to rebuild my 605 and put it back in, and do all the other aforementioned changes over time, money permitting.

Just something to think of.......not trying to pop a bubble.

MikeB · Apr 29, 2013

finn210 said:
So they are metric bolts? good to know :tu

Well, the stock bolts are 3/8"-16 grade 8, and that's what I used on my 500 box. I also used large, thick, grade 8 flat washers to spread the load on the outside of the frame. One of these days, I may fab a flat plate to cover a larger area.

Pops @ Tri-5.com · Apr 29, 2013

HMM.......All this concern over the mounting of the steering box....I'm wondering if it might be a good idea to beef-up the idler arm bolts.

On the other hand, these trifives have been driven for years with no special bolts on the steering box or idler arm.

Just thinking out loud here.:confused0006:

Rick_L · Apr 29, 2013

Well, the stock bolts are 3/8"-16 grade 8, and that's what I used on my 500 box.

If you have 3/8-16 bolts, they aren't stock. Stock bolts are 3/8-24 carriage head as stated early on in the thread. You can't use carriage head bolts on the CPP500.

Both the steering box and idler arm bracket bolts are hardened bolts. There's no reason to think the idler arm bracket bolts would fail unless you overtorqued them.

C57heaven · Apr 29, 2013

Identification
Grade MarkSpecificationFastener
DescriptionMaterialNominal Size
Range (in.)Mechanical PropertiesProof Load
(psi)Yield Strength
Min (psi)Tensile Strength
Min (psi)

No
Grade
MarkSAE J429
Grade 1Bolts,
Screws,
StudsLow or Medium Carbon Steel1/4 thru 1-1/233,00036,00060,000ASTM A307
Grades A&BLow Carbon Steel1/4 thru 4----SAE J429
Grade 2Low or Medium Carbon Steel1/4 thru 3/4 Over 3/4 to 1-1/255,000
33,00057,000
36,00074,000
60,000

No
Grade
MarkSAE J429
Grade 4StudsMedium Carbon Cold Drawn Steel1/4 thru 1-1/2--100,000115,000

B5ASTM A193
Grade B5AISI 5011/4 Thru 4--80,000100,000

B6ASTM A193
Grade B6AISI 41085,000110,000

B7ASTM A193
Grade B7AISI 4140, 4142, OR 41051/4 thru 2-1/2
Over 2-1/2 thru 4
Over 4 thru 7--
--
--105,000
95,000
75,000125,000
115,000
100,000

B16ASTM A193
Grade B16CrMoVa Alloy Steel105,000
95,000
85,000125,000
115,000
100,000

B8ASTM A193
Grade B8AISI 3041/4 and larger--30,00075,000

B8CASTM A193
Grade B8CAISI 347

B8MASTM A193
Grade B8MAISI 316

B8TASTM A193
Grade B8TBolts,
Screws,
Studs for High-Temperature ServiceAISI 3211/4 and larger--30,00075,000

B8ASTM A193
Grade B8AISI 304
Strain Hardened1/4 thr 3/4
Over 3/4 thru 1
Over 1 thru 1-1/4
Over 1-1/4 thru 1-1/2--
--
--
--100,000
80,000
65,000
50,000125,000
115,000
105,000
100,000

B8CASTM A193
Grade B8CAISI 347
Strain Hardened

B8MASTM A193
Grade B8MAISI 316
Strain Hardened95,000
80,000
65,000
50,000110,000
100,000
95,000
90,000

B8TASTM A193
Grade B8TAISI 321
Strain Hardened100,000
80,000
65,000
50,000125,000
115,000
105,000
100,000

L7ASTM A320
Grade L7Bolts,
Screws,
Studs for Low-Temperature ServiceAISI 4140,
4142 or 41451/4 thru 2-1/2 --105,000125,000

L7AASTM A320
Grade L7AAISI 4037

L7BASTM A320
Grade L7BAISI 4137

L7CASTM A320
Grade LC7AISI 8740

L43ASTM A320
Grade L43AISI 43401/4 thru 4--105,000125,000

B8ASTM A320
Grade B8Bolts,
Screws,
Studs for Low-Temperature ServiceAISI 3041/4 and larger--30,00075,000

B8CASTM A320
Grade B8CAISI 347

B8TASTM A320
Grade B8TAISI 321

B8FASTM A320
Grade B8FAISI 303
or 303Se

B8MASTM A320
Grade B8MAISI 316

B8ASTM A320
Grade B8AISI 3041/4 thru 3/4
Over 3/4 thru 1
Over 1 thru 1-1/4
Over 1-1/4 thru 1-1/2--
--
--
--100,000
80,000
65,00
50,00100,000
80,000
65,00
50,00

B8CASTM A320
Grade B8CAISI 347

B8FASTM A320
Grade B8FAISI 303
or 303Se

B8MASTM A320
Grade B8MAISI 316

B8TASTM A320
Grade B8TAISI 321

SAE J429
Grade 5Bolts,
Screws,
StudsMedium Carbon Steel, Quenched and Tempered1/4 thru 1
Over 1 to 1-1/285,000
74,00092,000
81,000120,000
105,000ASTM A4491/4 thru 1
Over 1 to 1-1/2
Over 1-1/2 thru 385,000
74,000
55,00092,000
81,000
58,000120,000
105,000
90,000

SAE J429
Grade 5.1SemsLow or Medium Carbon Steel, Quenched and TemperedNo. 6
thru 3/885,000--120,000

SAE J429
Grade 5.2Bolts,
Screws,
StudsLow Carbon Martensitic Steel, Quenched and Tempered1/4 thru 185,00092,000120,000

A325ASTM A325
Type 1High Strength
Structural BoltsMedium Carbon Steel, Quenched and Tempered1/2 thru 1
1-1/8 thru 1-1/285,000
74,00092,000
81,000120,000
105,000

A325ASTM A325
Type 2Low Carbon Martensitic Steel, Quenched and Tempered1/2 thru 185,00092,000120,000

A325ASTM A325
Type 3Atmospheric Corrosion Resisting Steel, Quenched and Tempered1/2 thru 1
1-1/8 thru 1-1/285,000
74,00092,000
81,000120,000
105,000

BBASTM A354
Grade BBBolts,
StudsAlloy Steel, Quenched and Tempered1/4 thru 2-1/2
2-3/4 thru 480,000
75,00083,000
78,000105,000
100,000

BCASTM A354
Grade BC105,000
95,000109,000
99,000125,000
115,000

SAE J429
Grade 7Bolts,
Screws,Medium Carbon Alloy Steel, Quenched and Tempered 41/4 thru 1-1/2105,000115,000133,000

SAE J429
Grade 8Bolts,
Screws,
StudsMedium Carbon Alloy Steel, Quenched and Tempered1/4 thru 1-1/2120,000130,000150,000ASTM A354
Grade BDAlloy Steel, Quenched and Tempered 4

No Grade
MarkSAE J429
Grade 8.1StudsMedium Carbon Alloy or SAE 1041 Modified Elevated Temperature Drawn Steel1/4 thru 1-1/2120,000130,000150,000

A490ASTM A490High Strength Structural BoltsAlloy Steel, Quenched and Tempered1/2 thru 1-1/2120,000130,000150,000 min
170,000 max

No Grade
MarkISO R898
Class 4.6Bolts,
Screws,
StudsMedium Carbon Steel, Quenched and TemperedAll Sizes
thru 1-1/233,00036,00060,000

No Grade
MarkISO R898
Class 5.855,00057,00074,0008.8

or

88ISO R898
Class 8.8Alloy Steel, Quenched and Tempered85,00092,000120,00010.9

or

109ISO R898
Class 10.9120,000130,000150,000

Looks like grade 8 and 10.9 are similar in strength.

facts from this site: http://www.americanfastener.com/technical/grade_markings_steel.asp

MikeB · Apr 30, 2013

Rick_L said:
If you have 3/8-16 bolts, they aren't stock. Stock bolts are 3/8-24 carriage head as stated early on in the thread. You can't use carriage head bolts on the CPP500.

I stand corrected.

My frame didn't take kindly to normal torque you would put on a 3/8" bolt, hence my use of large, thick, grade 8 flat washers, and my idea of fabricating a large reinforcement plate. Seems like it would have been a good idea to weld in 3/4" OD X 3/8" ID spacers inside the frame. Anyone else here ever notice this problem?

Rick_L · Apr 30, 2013

My thought is that if you are collapsing the frame walls, you're overtorquing the bolts.

zbad55 · Apr 30, 2013

Maybe a dumb question here, but how do you use regular bolts when the frame holes are set up with a square for the carriage bolts? I just bought a kit from Jalapeño and haven't installed it yet but don't remember if bolts for the gear box came with it. Glad I found this thread because I was planning to use the stock bolts as I thought it was a direct replacement. I don't remember but is the stock box threaded through the holes?

USA1 · Apr 30, 2013

Rick_L said:
My thought is that if you are collapsing the frame walls, you're overtorquing the bolts.

That or your frame has been bathing in salt water.

USA1 · Apr 30, 2013

zbad55 said:
Maybe a dumb question here, but how do you use regular bolts when the frame holes are set up with a square for the carriage bolts? I just bought a kit from Jalapeño and haven't installed it yet but don't remember if bolts for the gear box came with it. Glad I found this thread because I was planning to use the stock bolts as I thought it was a direct replacement. I don't remember but is the stock box threaded through the holes?

Stock box has no threads attachs with Carrage bolts and nuts.

Pops @ Tri-5.com · Apr 30, 2013

zbad55 said:
Maybe a dumb question here, but how do you use regular bolts when the frame holes are set up with a square for the carriage bolts? I just bought a kit from Jalapeño and haven't installed it yet but don't remember if bolts for the gear box came with it. Glad I found this thread because I was planning to use the stock bolts as I thought it was a direct replacement. I don't remember but is the stock box threaded through the holes?

The stock box uses a carriage bolt, lock washer and nut http://www.trifive.com/garage/55 Chevy Assembly Manual/9-3.gif

I used Grade 8 bolts with a hardened flat washer and lock washer under the head on my CPP 500 box

snaptwo · Apr 30, 2013

, We just got done with the 500 swap in my '56 "waggy" and used the supplied bolts but added a hardened flat to each. I seem to remember that there is some type of crush sleeve inside the stock frame although it doesn't fit around the bolt shank very tightly. I also had to install a couple 1/32" front end shims at the rearmost bolt hole between the inside rail and box to align the column in the center of the stock firewall hole. Worked out well so far and drives like a different car. I will however check those bolts periodically.

USA1 · Apr 30, 2013

snaptwo said:
, We just got done with the 500 swap in my '56 "waggy" and used the supplied bolts but added a hardened flat to each. I seem to remember that there is some type of crush sleeve inside the stock frame although it doesn't fit around the bolt shank very tightly. I also had to install a couple 1/32" front end shims at the rearmost bolt hole between the inside rail and box to align the column in the center of the stock firewall hole. Worked out well so far and drives like a different car. I will however check those bolts periodically.

I too have seen cars with steering box shimmed.

snaptwo · May 1, 2013

Shimming bugged me until I tried putting a flat washer in the same space . ever see a monkey trying to make love to a football ? I was dreaming of making a tapered shim plate on the mill but decided that would be overkill. I can only imagine what the frame and stock box were subjected to in 57 years.

567chevy · May 1, 2013

MikeB said:
I stand corrected.

My frame didn't take kindly to normal torque you would put on a 3/8" bolt, hence my use of large, thick, grade 8 flat washers, and my idea of fabricating a large reinforcement plate. Seems like it would have been a good idea to weld in 3/4" OD X 3/8" ID spacers inside the frame. Anyone else here ever notice this problem?

FYI

There are a factory set of tube style anti crush spacers inside the frame rails to prevent collapsing from overtorquing, both for the steering box and the idler arm.

Back in the day, when these boxes were first introduced, I was the first dealer in North America to sell these boxes. There were a lot of growing pains with this box, but most of the issues were resolved by CPP.
One of the issues I and a lot of my customers had with this box is that the mounting bosses on the box were now threaded and no longer could you use the original hardened carriage bolts and nuts.
Using the new mounting system presented a real challenge to install this box by yourself. It is near impossible to do by yourself.

With the original box you just put one carriage bolt through the frame, position the corresponding mounting boss onto the bolt and put the nut on loose. Now with the weight of the box is supported by the carriage bolt, just line up the other 2 holes, slip the carriage bolts through frame and box and put the nuts on .

The other issue I had with this mounting system is it does not allow for slight movement of the box to align with the rag joint/steering shaft if needed.

I asked CPP to drill out the mounting bosses so the original carriage bolts can be used.

They did not agree with me and hundreds of my customers that bought the box. They choose to stay with their design.

500 box bolts?

C57heaven

mitch hennings

davidc

pepegriffo

C57heaven

Blinky

MikeB

Pops @ Tri-5.com

Rick_L

C57heaven

MikeB

Rick_L

zbad55

USA1

USA1

Pops @ Tri-5.com

snaptwo

USA1

snaptwo

567chevy

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